Toaster Panel repair

[Major Softie]

Yeah, I remember back in the 70's when Triumph was still doing the "marine chrome" process on it's chrome parts. Those parts could withstand far more weather than the Japanese bikes . . . looked better new too.

I don't remember how many plating steps there were for "Marine chrome." but it was something like 6 or 7, with polishing in-between.

Yep, them were the days. Too bad they didn't triple chrome plate all of the Lucas components, or for that matter their wiring and gas tanks too.

(I get to say that cuz I'm a fan of old Brit bikes.)

Ken

They were such an odd combination of the best workmanship and finest materials - and the worst - all in the same package. I think the E-type Jaguars even more thoroughly epitomize that.

[Ken in Oklahoma]

They were such an odd combination of the best workmanship and finest materials - and the worst - all in the same package. I think the E-type Jaguars even more thoroughly epitomize that.

A couple books I've read on the subject say that, back in the day, it was all about saving a pence here and there. That's why we had Lucas parts that crapped out easily and early. The other major electrics supplier, whose name eludes me, was purportedly as bad. Also the contemporary Amal carbs with their zinc throttle slide in a zinc body was "guaranteed" to wear. I think I might have put 10K miles on my Dad's, then my '57 Triumph Thunderbird when I noticed that the throttle would hang up a bit when throttling back at speed. When I took a look at things I could see significant wear from the slide chattering in the bore at idle. A replacement slide soon developed the same problem.

I've never been around period Ducatis, but I understand they suffered from similar quality problems, especially with the electrics and paint.

But oooooh the look, the feel, and the sound of the bikes..........!

It just occurred to me to compare Brit bikes and Ducatis to "trophy wives", except maybe for the sound.



Ken

[chasbmw]

I was told that the Norton problem with running main bearings was largely due to norton reducing the spec of the Lucas contact breakers. It cost the factory mega bucks.

[Ken in Oklahoma]

I was told that the Norton problem with running main bearings was largely due to norton reducing the spec of the Lucas contact breakers. It cost the factory mega bucks.

Could be. I've read that the Triumph and BSA twins and triples were damaged because of the Lucas multiple point sets. There was always going to be spark timing differences between the cylinders. For the twins I think they would have done much better with a wasted spark system like our airheads.

The unit construction BSA's also had problems with one of the main bearings. Can't remember if it was the timing side or the drive side. But like the Norton, a fix has long been identified.


Ken

[Chuey]

Some of it was down to the metallurgy of the time vs what is available now. Ironically, getting back to the subject of chrome plating, I'm told by a British machinist friend of mine that chrome back then, at least top quality chrome, used cyanide in the process. That, as I understand it, made the chrome plating very tough. I think it has something to do with the adhering of the plating to the substrate.

The machinist friend has his father's Claude Butler road racing bike from the late sixties to early seventies (I'm not sure) and the chrome on that bike is out of this world in quality and it is like new to this day. What a joy to see.

Oh the other hand, there is the issue of human health. I guess we'll just have to forgo that super bitchin' chrome job so some poor soul doesn't have to work with it and it doesn't get dumped into our water supply. Chrome plating is some nasty stuff!

Chuey

[Major Softie]

The biggest problem on all those motors was that they were not designed to be enlarged, and when they did enlarge them, they didn't re-engineer them to deal with the greater power.

So, as the Japanese engines were getting more and more reliable, the British ones were actually getting worse.

Of course, this doesn't give the triples any excuse...

[Ken in Oklahoma]

The biggest problem on all those motors was that they were not designed to be enlarged, and when they did enlarge them, they didn't re-engineer them to deal with the greater power.

So, as the Japanese engines were getting more and more reliable, the British ones were actually getting worse.

Of course, this doesn't give the triples any excuse...

That's a good insight Major. I've not seen it expressed explicitly the way you just did it.

Sadly BSA/Triumph had an opportunity to update their designs when they went to the unit construction (combined engine/transmission) design for '63. They finally had a blank (if not "clean") sheet of paper to work with. But what they came up with was essentially a marketing based repackaging of an old "well developed" design. Perhaps the biggest improvement was going to an in house energy transfer design or battery and coil ignitions in lieu of Lucas ignitions. And that improvement was likely more inspired by cost reduction than performance. But the "in-house" ignitions had their own problems, including engine killing ones. (They would have done sooooo much better with a wasted spark design for the twins and a distributed spark for the triples.)

Too bad the British bikes weren't able scratch out their own survival like Harley Davidson did. And I like it that Moto Guzzi and Ducati were able survive with some of their DNA intact. (I regard modern Triumph motorcycles as having no DNA left.)

And of course there is BMW, who at least have a strand of "boxer twin" DNA left in their offerings.

Oh, and all of the above is IMNSHO.


Ken

[chasbmw]

I quite agree with you ken......things such as having mixed threads on a single vehicle, they went to AF on the frames, but kept Whitworths on the engine because it was too expensive to reengineer the engine. In the 50s early 60s the wife of the owner of BSA was notorious for riding around in a gold plated Rolls.

Many years ago I visited the old Roots factory in Coventry, I saw the machine tools for the Hillman Hunter saloon, packed up ready to go to Iran, where thay are still making the car under licence. The machine tools were all from the US, dating back to the 20s and 30s, given that this kit would have worked 24/7 during WW2 archieving any sort of decent tolerances must have been really difficult.

I agree about the lack of DNA with the Hinckley Triumphs, but at least thay have built a sustainable motorcycle industry, even though some of the bikes are made in Thailand. Some people might reckon that Harley have too much DNA, but Harley's attempts to move away from their core model range with the V4s and the Buells have not been successful in market terms.

[Major Softie]

Some people might reckon that Harley have too much DNA, but Harley's attempts to move away from their core model range with the V4s and the Buells have not been successful in market terms.

Harley didn't attempt to go anywhere with V4's or Buell. The only V4 they sold was an Austrian Rotax engine used in a Buell model. Buell was an independent company, and was doing just fine as a small manufacturer. Harley bought that company and ended up shutting it down after a few years - not because it was unsuccessful, but because they decided the line just didn't fit well into their dealership model (in other words: real Harley people, including the dealers themselves, didn't like them, and didn't really like the people who did like them). The only attempt Harley actually made to move away from their core model range was the V-Rod, which has had pretty low sales, and was almost immediately turned into more "Harley" type models, with the pegs right below the grips. The only less "cruiser" style model was the "Street Rod," with a normal seating position, inverted fork, good Brembo brakes, and a far greater lean angle. It lasted 2 years: 06-07.

Yeah, they designed and tested a V4 over 30 years ago, but that bike never got an opportunity to see if it could be "successful in market terms," so that was not an attempt to move away from their model range. Rather, it was an opportunity to do so, and they decided not to make the attempt.

[chasbmw]

My mistake I had the idea that the V Rod was a V4