a (sort of) basic timing question

[interferencefit]

No, I don't have a multimeter, but I suppose I'll buy one now. Fluke is the way to go it looks like. The battery is likely not a problem. I bought a new Odyssey PC 680 about three months ago. It sat in my house until a month ago. I bought the charger with it, so I charge it back up after every round of "testing." It charges up in 5-30 minutes depending on how much cranking I did. So, while I don't have a load tester, I am almost certain that it is not the battery. It is always topped up before I try something new.

[chasbmw]

Looks like it is time to spend some money on tools, a basic standard strobe light and a Multimeter.

A 680 has quite a kick, I would reckon that it has power to handle a worn starter motor with more than enough current left over to fire the Boyer. The fact that it only takes such a short time to bring it back to fully charged, suggests to me that it is barely breaking sweat.

To get a proper figure you have to remove the carbs/ or hold the slides open with you fingers. The slide is vacuum operated and wont be open at cranking revs, whatever you do to the throttle. 125 PSI is a good figure the may you have tested it.

I have a feeling that your problem is not down to timing/ignition. who set up the carbs? Are you operating the chokes properly?
How about a can of ezistart sprayed into the carbs as you crank the engine.

[interferencefit]

Thanks to all who have been helping me sort this out. Today was informative. I had good blue spark when it was under compression, so I decided the starter wasn't my problem.

I was not able to time the bike with a timing light. I bought a new light, the kind that clips on to the plug wire and runs on the bike battery, but it would not light. I'm guessing that it is just too loose on the wire. It does not clip tightly at all. Has anybody had this problem before? It just doesn't seem to be registering the spark at all. So that was a drag.

At this point I was bound and determined to eliminate timing before looking hard at the carbs (I went through them and rebuilt them very carefully with new parts and an ultrasonic cleaning). I removed the Boyer and put in a set of points. I static timed it to the "S" mark. I hit the starter button and it fired right up. It seems almost unfathomable to me that the Boyer was putting spark out at the wrong time, but that seems to be what was happening. I'll call Rocky Point tomorrow and see what Bill has to say. I had adjusted the Boyer unit every which way, and it just wouldn't start. I could advance it a bit more if I modify the stator plate, but I'll see if that's kosher this week. I would really like to run an electronic ignition.

I am still in a bit of a pickle with timing, as I need a strobe light to set maximum advance, so any tips regarding lights that you have used with success would be appreciated.

To recap:
I had compression
I had fuel
I had spark (at the wrong time)

[chasbmw]

That's great, it looks like you have a solution, hopefully the dealer will do an exchange on the Boyer.

Strobes seem to work better if they are powered by their own battery, rather than the bikes battery, use whatever source of 12volts that you can find. If the timing has been properly set on the S mark, it should be good at full advance, the mechanical advance and retard units seem to be fairly robust.

[Jean]

Is the bike NOW otherwise ridable?
It's time to go for a ride. You earned it.

Maybe the BIKE does not want electronic ignition...be nice to the bike.

[interferencefit]

I was able to get the bike idling and I adjusted the carbs after a brief ride. Turns out the timing was a bit advanced when I checked it with the light. I set it to "S" at about 800 RPM and it was close to the "F" dot at ~3000 RPM. I've got to check where max advance is more carefully because the springs on the advance unit are not in good shape (one is a bit stretched). I'm confident that all of the components are working properly with the points installed. I did have to open the butterflies on the carbs a bit to get an idle around 1000 RPM. I was never able to get the timing light to work without the bike actually running, but I didn't use an outside power source, just the bike battery. I will put the Boyer back in in a few days and then ask for a new one or for my money back if it doesn't work. I'll also replace the advance unit springs and run it on two plugs until I decide what to do permanently. Thanks for all the help. I'll post a pic when it's where I want it. It's as pretty as it will ever be after this refurbishing.

[interferencefit]

An update:
The bike runs well (with the points; I confirmed that the Boyer is no good today and then reinstalled the points), but timing is a bit advanced. Maximum advance (about 3000 RPM) has the "F" dot past the center of the hole. In fact the actual "F" letter is centered in the hole at maximum advance, so I think this is about 3-4 degrees advanced. I cannot retard the timing any more with the points plate; it is at the end of the slots and will not rotate any more. The only thing that I can think is that my camshaft and crankshaft are not properly aligned, despite the fact that I spent a bit of time making sure that the dots on the two sprockets were aligned. When installing new cam and crank sprockets along with a chain, I put the chain tensioner on after securing the chain with the fishclip. I rotated the engine once or twice and was satisfied that the timing marks on the two sprockets were lined up. They were not perfectly aligned, but they were not close to being a whole "tooth" off. If I had rotated either sprocket to try for a better alignment, it would have made it worse. I am planning to take the timing chain cover off next week and take a look to double-check my work. The job is kind of a pain, so I was wondering if anybody has experience with how far out of alignment the two sprockets must be before the bike won't run or runs really poorly. It runs well and I don't really think that cam and crank alignment are my problem, but I don't know what else it can be. At idle, the "S" mark is quite clear (a little advanced) and there is no double image, so I think my camshaft is in good shape. I would appreciate any help with diagnosis of the advanced spark and what might cause it. Thanks.

[Kurt in S.A.]

Change the points gap...setting it to 0.016" is not sacred. You can vary 0.003 or 0.004 either way and the bike/ignition will be fine. If you're too advanced, you need to open the gap up so the points open later. A small change in gap makes a huge change in timing position.

Kurt in S.A.

[Duane Ausherman]

One can set points from almost closed, but they won't cool and will burn up quickly. Or, set them way out to .040" but they might float and not reach a high rpm.
There were times when we would find these conditions on a customer's bike.

If the spark plug was under compression, how did you see the blue spark?

[Ken in Oklahoma]

No, I don't have a multimeter, but I suppose I'll buy one now. Fluke is the way to go it looks like. . . .

If you haven't bought that multimeter yet, I'd suggest you save a lot of money. Harbor Freight has very good digital multimeters for next to nothing. Actually you can get them for nothing if you get your hands on the right coupon. And I do mean nothing. The coupon gets you a multimeter for free.

I have a few free HF multimeters and use them often. I haven't had one ever go bad and the readings from one meter to another all agree. What will a Fluke meter do for you except give you accurate readings?

All of my vehicles carry a HF multimeter.

Harbor Freight flyers can be found in many magazines, including many motorcycle magazines. They also appear in the Sunday newspapers in many places. Go to a magazine rack and flip through various magazines. You will see what I'm talking about.

To be clear, I'm not a big fan of cheap Chinese products, especially tools. But with angle grinders (for example) available for $10 (with coupon) the risk seems worth taking. I've used HF angle grinders for years with nary a problem.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that all HF Chinese products are good value and long lasting. Some are crap, in fact.

But some aren't.


Ken