a (sort of) basic timing question

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melville
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Re: a (sort of) basic timing question

Post by melville »

Ken in Oklahoma wrote:
interferencefit wrote:No, I don't have a multimeter, but I suppose I'll buy one now. Fluke is the way to go it looks like. . . .
If you haven't bought that multimeter yet, I'd suggest you save a lot of money. Harbor Freight has very good digital multimeters for next to nothing. Actually you can get them for nothing if you get your hands on the right coupon. And I do mean nothing. The coupon gets you a multimeter for free.

I have a few free HF multimeters and use them often. I haven't had one ever go bad and the readings from one meter to another all agree. What will a Fluke meter do for you except give you accurate readings?

All of my vehicles carry a HF multimeter.

Harbor Freight flyers can be found in many magazines, including many motorcycle magazines. They also appear in the Sunday newspapers in many places. Go to a magazine rack and flip through various magazines. You will see what I'm talking about.

To be clear, I'm not a big fan of cheap Chinese products, especially tools. But with angle grinders (for example) available for $10 (with coupon) the risk seems worth taking. I've used HF angle grinders for years with nary a problem.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that all HF Chinese products are good value and long lasting. Some are crap, in fact.

But some aren't.


Ken
Quickly--to retard the spark, reduce the gap.

And yes, the HF multimeters aren't bad at all. I took a community college auto electrics class and brought in my HF meter to compare to the Flukes we had in the shop. Readings for all the functions they had in common were identical. IIRC, my older boy bought two of them for $3.99 for a science fair project.
Call me Mel. Some years ago- never mind how long precisely- having little or no money in my purse, and nothing particular to interest me at home, I thought I would ride about a little and see the other parts of the world.
Major Softie
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Re: a (sort of) basic timing question

Post by Major Softie »

Ken in Oklahoma wrote: If you haven't bought that multimeter yet, I'd suggest you save a lot of money. Harbor Freight has very good digital multimeters for next to nothing. Actually you can get them for nothing if you get your hands on the right coupon. And I do mean nothing. The coupon gets you a multimeter for free.

I have a few free HF multimeters and use them often. I haven't had one ever go bad and the readings from one meter to another all agree. What will a Fluke meter do for you except give you accurate readings?

All of my vehicles carry a HF multimeter.

Harbor Freight flyers can be found in many magazines, including many motorcycle magazines. They also appear in the Sunday newspapers in many places. Go to a magazine rack and flip through various magazines. You will see what I'm talking about.

To be clear, I'm not a big fan of cheap Chinese products, especially tools. But with angle grinders (for example) available for $10 (with coupon) the risk seems worth taking. I've used HF angle grinders for years with nary a problem.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that all HF Chinese products are good value and long lasting. Some are crap, in fact.

But some aren't.


Ken
I thoroughly agree.

The Fluke will last a professional a lifetime. The HF meter will be just as accurate and will last most do-it-yourselfers a lifetime, as they'll probably use the thing less than 100 times instead of 10's of thousands of times.

I've actually found that the angle grinders are a poor value, as careful shopping can find a "real" angle grinder for maybe 2 - 3 times as much, and it will be more powerful, much quieter, and last at least 10 times as long.

Their wrenches vary in quality from horrible to equivalent with Craftsman. You really have to check close.

Their sockets tend to be very good. Their ratchets border on useless. Their 3/4" drive and 1" drive sockets are an absolutely incredible value, but the ratchets are no better than the smaller ones. Works fine with a breaker bar.

I've never been brave enough to trust one of their torque wrenches, but I would guess that their beam types are probably fine. I wouldn't ever suggest trusting one of their click-types.


In general, they have phenomenal values and worthless crap. Shop carefully.
MS - out
interferencefit
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Re: a (sort of) basic timing question

Post by interferencefit »

Duane Ausherman wrote:One can set points from almost closed, but they won't cool and will burn up quickly. Or, set them way out to .040" but they might float and not reach a high rpm.
There were times when we would find these conditions on a customer's bike.

If the spark plug was under compression, how did you see the blue spark?
I guess I meant that I had good spark from the Boyer under a load, as the plugs weren't under compression. What I did was ground two extra plugs to the fins. I fired those plugs and I left the original plugs in the cylinders so that the starter would have to work under compression while the Boyer was sparking. It did spark, and quite nicely, under these conditions. This was done to rule out a weak starter. I'm confident the starter works correctly, as the bike fires up immediately after I hit the button.
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Ken in Oklahoma
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Re: a (sort of) basic timing question

Post by Ken in Oklahoma »

interferencefit wrote: I guess I meant that I had good spark from the Boyer under a load, as the plugs weren't under compression. What I did was ground two extra plugs to the fins. I fired those plugs and I left the original plugs in the cylinders so that the starter would have to work under compression while the Boyer was sparking. It did spark, and quite nicely, under these conditions. This was done to rule out a weak starter. I'm confident the starter works correctly, as the bike fires up immediately after I hit the button.
Hmmm, I'm not sure what you proved. Perhaps I haven't been following this thread close enough.

But what I'm getting is that you wanted to put the battery and starter under load and you wanted to watch the spark itself in order to evaluate your Boyer in near real life conditions. So, instead of attaching the spark plug leads to the plugs in the heads you attached them to the external plugs so you can get a near real life view of the spark plug's intensity.

There is a fly in the ointment, if I understand what you're doing and why correctly. The fly is that it takes more voltage to arc across the plug electrodes under high pressure than it does at atmospheric pressure. In other words, air under pressure is harder to ionize than air at much less pressure.

Back in the olden days gas stations with garages often had spark plug testers. The pressure was supplied by the gas station's compressed air supply. The question posed to the customer with the suspect plugs was whether his plugs were capable of firing under the high pressure conditions inside the cylinder. The customer would be invited to watch his plug(s) and verify that there was a spark at atmospheric pressure. Then the mechanic would apply pressure to the chamber and invite the customer to watch the plug's performance at elevated pressures, purportedly emulating the conditions inside the cylinder under operating conditions.

Failure of the spark plug to fire under pressure or look weak under pressure would be "proof positive" that the customer needed a new set of plugs.

The actual degree of validity of the tests I couldn't say, but even as a wet behind the ears wise ass teenager I could see the potential for fraud. (Fraud is an ugly word but my brain didn't provide me with a better phrase to use here.)

I do have a test of my own that served me well with two stroke MX bikes when I was suspicious that my ignition wasn't "hot" enough. My Husky 360 MXer ignition got to a point where it just wouldn't run in "battle" conditions. The problem was that the Husky had a flywheel magneto which was terribly expensive. My test consisted of closing the plug gap down to about 10 thousandths gap and see what happened then, since less gap meant that less voltage was required of the ignition system to create a spark in the combustion chamber.

The misfire quit entirely. But of course that didn't mean that narrowing the gap on the plug meant I was now ready to do battle. Two strokes had a nasty habit of fouling their pugs under the best of conditions. And a 10 thousandth gap was much easier to foul than, say, 20 or 25 thousandths.

Possibly the main reason I'm going in to all of the above is to demonstrate how clever I was--then. But the cleverness wasn't devising the above test. Rather the original windings inside the engine case had both primary and secondary windings, one layered over the other. And, of course it was the secondary that broke down--much as it's usually the secondary that breaks down in a conventional coil.

What I did was strip all of the windings off the original flywheel magneto "armature" and I rewound it with a certain number of turns of magnet wire. I'm not sure how I came up with the number of turns to use. Likely I simply wound all the wire on the "pole piece" that it would hold.

Then I installed a conventional coil under the gas tank, made a connection to the coil and, poof! I now had an energy transfer ignition--which worked until I retired the bike.

I almost doubt I could do such a thing now. I would likely get so wrapped around the axle trying to get the various parameters right that I would be frozen. Plus, now, I have enough money to buy a spare flywheel magneto that I would likely do that rather than cowboy up the courage to dive into the project.


Ken
____________________________________
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interferencefit
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Re: a (sort of) basic timing question

Post by interferencefit »

The starter works and I obviously get good spark under compression, as the thing runs with points, and runs well. My real question is what can cause my timing to be advanced to the point that I can't adjust it out with the points plate? It seems like the recommended solution is to narrow the gap and not worry about it. I get that, but I would like to know if anybody has experience with identifying the root of the problem (ore even knows if there is one). I could just drill different holes in my points plate and it would be timed correctly, but the valve and cylinder compression timing wouldn't synch up. I do hope to run an electronic ignition with dual plugs at some point in the near future, and I will have to be able to retard it 8-10 degrees from where things are now for that to work properly. I was going to take another look at my camshaft and crankshaft alignment, unless that will be a waste of time. I was hoping somebody might have some experience with misaligned cam and crank sprockets and be able to tell me what the symptoms are and whether or not I should bother to remove the timing cover and crankshaft bearing if all it will do is confirm that everything is fine. My experience with cars has been that a one-tooth misalignment caused major problems with running, but I've never dealt with only two cylinders. Thanks to all for bearing with me on this.
Duane Ausherman
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Re: a (sort of) basic timing question

Post by Duane Ausherman »

Ken is right and that is why I asked about firing under compression. I didn't mean that the cylinder should be under compression. I meant that the spark plug should be under compression. Since it runs, you have no problem. I just wondered how you proved that you had a good spark while the "plug" was under compression.

Simple answer, You didn't.

It may seem trivial, but there is a huge difference in the amount of voltage required to fire in the compressed air.
Ask the Indians what happens when you don't control immigration.
pat76r90
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Re: a (sort of) basic timing question

Post by pat76r90 »

For what it's worth, I've been chasing my "s" timing mark too. 1976 r90, 40,000 miles, and I'm very new to BMWs. I had put a new set of points in, and had to file out the plate to get the mark even close. If you give me a spec of .014-.016, I'll set it to .015. One of the mistakes I made was trying to fit the whole feeler gauge between, you don't need to, (Thanks Duane). After setting the points to .015, running the idle so low that the generator light was on at idle,and filing the plate so much that the points back was hitting the plate screw, and STILL being about 10 degrees too far advanced, I loosened the points adjusting screw and nudged the points just a little closer, didn't bother to put a gauge to it, just watched the points back plate move a smidge. Tightened it down and the voila, dead nuts. If I had to guess, I would say the points are sloppily manufactured, and require a bit of tweaking to get right. Truth to tell, the bike ran real well 10 degrees off, not a hint of ping, but it bugged me, and I'm preparing for my first road trip on it, and I want it right.
Jean
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Re: a (sort of) basic timing question

Post by Jean »

In another earlier post we discussed various replacement points not being exactly the same as the OEM points...different length of moving arm, a tiny bit of difference in the location of the pivot. Not big things but enough to mess you up when you try to set the proper gap with the OEM points plate and the original "tuning-slot".
Please keep THIS in mind.
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interferencefit
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Re: a (sort of) basic timing question

Post by interferencefit »

Jean - Duly noted. I'll run dual plugs with the points and adjust it via lengthening the slots/narrowing the gap to get 5-6 degrees retarded from the "F" mark at full advance. The timing cover stays on unless I have bad performance at the top or bottom end. As it is now, I'll assume tolerances are not exact somewhere in the points hardware. I get a new Boyer in a few days, and I'll try it and then give up and run points. Cheers.
interferencefit
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Re: a (sort of) basic timing question

Post by interferencefit »

A few things:

1. The Boyer box tested bad and a replacement is being sent from Rocky Point - Bill has been great about the whole thing

2. I put both green coils (total primary resistance 6 Ohms) back in and connected all four plugs

3. I replaced my points plate that was a little bent (I got a perfect one from ibmwr for $65, along with two advance units, one set of good springs, and two sets of points)

4. I noticed that my brand new Noris points were not correct - the two contacts were not parallel, not even close; just a little tiny contact point, so I replaced them with some of the parts above

5. I set my point gap to .016" and rotated the new (flat) points plate to the middle of the adjustment range - started right up and max advance was dead-nuts on my retarded timing mark (5 degrees retarded from F). Runs like a dream, although I've not run it past 4,000 RPM yet, on account of new rings.

6. I'll put the new Boyer in next week and mark my timing plate so that I can put the points back in when the Boyer craps out.

Thanks again for telling me not to tear the timing cover off. Turns out I aligned the timing marks like I thought I did - correctly.
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