Boxerworks.com

mattcfish wrote:The shocks and fork gators would have made me dubious right off.

Fork gators are non-dubious. They are correct in all ways

Condition of the bike should be a significant consideration. A rough R90S vs a cherry owner made R90S will even the score quite a bit, to my mind. Next, does your friend want to buy it because of his desire to ride it or because he wants an investment? Of course, either bike could be an investment.

I have a tendency to change enough things about my vehicles that they turn off the correctness police. Therefore, I would be a poor candidate to pay a premium for perfection in collectibe-ness. Likewise, I wouldn't want to pay for genuine-ness if it is not there. The seller should be ashamed if he is representing the bike as something it may "almost" be but isn't.

Chuey

disclaimer: I have an owner (me) made R90S and I love it!

Thanks all for your thoughts...

The seller bought this bike seven years ago as an R90S, and until last week had no reason to think it was otherwise (the UK registration document, a "V5", says no more than "BMW Motorcycle" and the cc.). He thought that the current market value for his "R90S" was £7k, and he'd probably realise that for a "genuine" machine. I think the consensus opinion from the posts here would be that the value of a replica might be a lot less. Certainly over here R90/6 bikes, perhaps unfairly, are going for less than half the price of their iconic sisters. That this bike has value added in the form of authentic R90S ancillaries could put a few hundred onto the price, and the paintwork's nice apparently. The situation is that my friend, Mal, made the seller an offer that was pretty much in line with what's been discussed here, which was briskly declined.

Like many here, I'd be happy to buy and ride that bike if I got it for the right price. I'd also be happier to do some of the modifications to handling and performance that I might be less inclined to do if the bike was a really tidy genuine bike with "investment" potential (aka greed...). The situation though appears that the seller's stuck with the dilemma of either lying to prospective purchasers about the bike's provenance (ill advised - it's a small world) or accepting that the bike he's spent years believing was a collectable classic is in fact a mongrel - albeit a pretty one - and worth much less than he'd hoped.

DanielMc wrote:. . . The situation is that my friend, Mal, made the seller an offer that was pretty much in line with what's been discussed here, which was briskly declined. . . .

Ah yes! The "seller" is in a bind isn't he? To sell the counterfit R90S for substantially less that a genuine R90S would force him to acknowledge his insufficient judgment and/or knowledge. If he doesn't want to do that, even if only subconsciously, then the problem is fixed by insisting on too much money for the bike.

If he manages to sell it for something close to what a real R90S would bring, that would avoid bad judgment remorse. The counterfit bike bought brought a R90S price, so his judgment was on target anyhow. It's not too hard to gloss over the fact that he thought it was a R90S when he bought it. If, on the other hand, he isn't able to sell the bike, that would mean that he hasn't been able to sell the bike YET. He still hasn't erred.

Disclaimer: I don't know the seller. Rather, I created a stereotype and talked about "him".


Ken

I have dealt with this situation in the Brit-bike-world, folks that WAY overpaid and refuse to take a loss on the "treasure" in the shed. I just make my offer, make sure that they have my phone number and walk away.

Vince

Ken in Oklahoma wrote:

DanielMc wrote:. . . The situation is that my friend, Mal, made the seller an offer that was pretty much in line with what's been discussed here, which was briskly declined. . . .

Ah yes! The "seller" is in a bind isn't he? To sell the counterfit R90S for substantially less that a genuine R90S would force him to acknowledge his insufficient judgment and/or knowledge. If he doesn't want to do that, even if only subconsciously, then the problem is fixed by insisting on too much money for the bike.

If he manages to sell it for something close to what a real R90S would bring, that would avoid bad judgment remorse. The counterfit bike bought brought a R90S price, so his judgment was on target anyhow. It's not too hard to gloss over the fact that he thought it was a R90S when he bought it. If, on the other hand, he isn't able to sell the bike, that would mean that he hasn't been able to sell the bike YET. He still hasn't erred.

Disclaimer: I don't know the seller. Rather, I created a stereotype and talked about "him".


Ken

He could be in a much bigger bind than that...

If he sells the bike as a genuine R90s knowing that it isn't... (even if he doesn't get the full value)... and the new owner dicovers the truth, he's likely to get his ass sued or get prosecuted under criminal law. Up to now he could possibly claim that he didn't know but now its in the public domain and he's been told, he's screwed. It might not be that cut and dried in the US but in the UK the law is all on the side of the purchaser in this sort of situation.

Rob

Rob Frankham wrote:
He could be in a much bigger bind than that...

If he sells the bike as a genuine R90s knowing that it isn't... (even if he doesn't get the full value)... and the new owner dicovers the truth, he's likely to get his ass sued or get prosecuted under criminal law. Up to now he could possibly claim that he didn't know but now its in the public domain and he's been told, he's screwed. It might not be that cut and dried in the US but in the UK the law is all on the side of the purchaser in this sort of situation.

Rob

Under these circumstances, I believe it would be fraud in the U.S. as well.

Major Softie wrote:... I believe it would be fraud in the U.S. as well.

Usually a matter of "buyer beware" ...
Or, quite literally, then be equipped
to bear the burden of pursuing / proving an allegation of "fraud" in the courts.

vanzen@rockerboxer.com wrote:

Major Softie wrote:... I believe it would be fraud in the U.S. as well.

Usually a matter of "buyer beware" ...
Or, quite literally, then be equipped
to bear the burden of pursuing / proving an allegation of "fraud" in the courts.

When you have an ad posted by the seller that describes an item as something it's not, and a witness that testifies that he told the seller the facts and showed him the documentation of those facts, you have a prima facie slam dunk. That is what we were talking about.

Daniel's friend certainly would have no such case against the seller, as there is no evidence that he knew, and, in fact, it appears that he did not. But, now he does.

"Buyer beware" has to do with things like not revealing flaws, not openly stating falsehoods. It absolutely never applies to claiming you are selling one item knowing it is actually something else. That is most certainly fraud. And, in the described scenario, would also certainly be clearly provable. Claims made verbally by the seller are a "he said - he said" kind of evidence problem, but documented claims make such a case much easier.