Flat Rate vs Shop Rate Ooch!

[grant81rs]

Gidday Fellas,

Different field but at the end of the day its all the same.

Being doing signage for 26yrs now I think, don't advertise much at all, its all word of mouth basically and a good website address helps nowdays I find http://www.signwriter.com.au
If a customer drives in with a new big flash new Kenworth truck to be signwritten up all groovy he has most likely heard of me from someone else, one of his mates or has seen my work around so he sort of knows what he is up for before he sets his foot in the door, I give them a straight up price there and then of $1500.00 give or take this and that. every job is a little different, some logos need more work than others, some blokes like more line than scrolls and vice versa, but that is a ball park price and generally most are very happy with that and are happy to pay it...
I would rather deal with fleet owners than shopkeepers as bascially there is more money in truck work and the tradtional lining and scrollwork is a specialised field as anyone that has gone out and spent $300,000 to $400,000 on a new rig thinks nothing of spending a couple of grand on a nice sign job for there truck, they deal with big dollar figures and it just doesn't seem to bother them, its their pride and joy and when it is done properly the feedback from them is amazing, they love to talk to other truckies and show off there rigs.......

If I am going on site to quote on a shoprfront sign job with a store keeper what I say now after the intro's are out of the way and we start to get into it is "So how much are you wanting to spend"!! yes I know what you are thinking, the least amount of money, but it helps me no end with getting a gauge of the person, how relistic are they and am I wasting my time here.
Over the years I have gone to alot of trouble in designing logo's and designs for shopfronts, spent hours apon hours, then handing then in with a price only to be told nothing and then seeing my design up on the building a few weeks lately done by some "backyarder" for a few slabs of beer.....it happened alot when I was starting out but does not happen anymore as my approach is different, maybe a little to upfront but at least I am not wasting my time getting stuffed around and or taken for a ride...
Over the last couple of years when someone rings for a signfront rebranding job I ask, "who am I quoting against, if you don't mind me asking", and when I here the name of XXXXXXX signwriters I say that I am not interested, "if its a price based job you are after then stick with them...If you are after something a bit different but wish to pay a little more then yes I will have a look at it for you"........ and 9 times out of 10 we win the job

[Duane Ausherman]

If it is of any interest, I can tell you how I ran my shop, some 35-40 years ago. I had the flat rate book, but only used it to justify my charges. I charged the honest time and not more. Nearly every job could be done well under the flat rate. I would have been a crook to use the flat rate manual.

I asked my 4 mechanics how they preferred to be paid, flat rate or shop time. All said shop time. They felt that they would be encouraged to work extra fast to earn more money. They preferred to be paid honestly and do the best job possible. If the customer plead poverty, we would use used parts and use all short cuts possible, but we still charged our time.

It was very rare to find someone asking for the flat rate. If they did, I would say that I was very happy to charge that much more. I could show them the rate for their bike and tell them that we most likely could beat it. Or, I would say, "Your bike is clean and well maintained. We can beat every flat rate job easily on a bike like this. This means that you would be paying extra to subsidize the dirty poorly maintained bike. Do you wish to pay for the repair on another bike?"

The answer was always "No."

Besides, if you are dealing with an honest shop, why worry about the way the bill is calculated.

We beat everyone on parts. I never once bought a bearing from BMW that was available from a bearing supplier. All of my BMW competitors added 10% to the suggested price list from BMW. They also didn't have the parts price book on the front counter so that customers could see it. We charged the book price exactly. The way we made "some extra" is that on a few parts we ordered them from Europe directly. That was cheaper and so the profit on those parts made up for not charging the 10% that the other shops charged. This was no secret, just as I tell it here, I have always spilled my guts to anyone interested. Bottom line, we looked good compared to the other 6 shops in the greater area.

As I still am, I am opinionated and outspoken. Not all customers can deal with me, so they went elsewhere. Since we always were behind on work, I was happy to not have them.

I think that the shop has too much work and money for you to give them even more. However, you must take a bit of the blame for not having this well understood out front. Or, so it seems to me from the way I read it.

[SuperDave]

If it is of any interest, I can tell you how I ran my shop, some 35-40 years ago. I had the flat rate book, but only used it to justify my charges. I charged the honest time and not more. Nearly every job could be done well under the flat rate. I would have been a crook to use the flat rate manual.

Would your shop had charged a whole hour for an R1100 front wheel bearings (no shimming and no parts) when flat rate was for a half hour AFTER you were already charging the minimum one hour for other work on the same wheel? Oh, and this shop charges a 15% markup.

I think that the shop has too much work and money for you to give them even more. However, you must take a bit of the blame for not having this well understood out front. Or, so it seems to me from the way I read it.

He said that the rim wasn't bad and I was there when he straightened it. It did not take him an hour and a half. He said that what I was feeling was not the bent wheel, but the wheel bearing. I understood "Up Front" that it would be one hour to straighten the wheel and then before leaving that we would be adding a second hour to include replacing the wheel bearings at $75 an hour ($150 + tax). What was not understood was charging two and a half hours at $85 and hour ($212.50 + tax). This might not sound like a lot of money to some of you, but I was unable to pay the extra without doing some side work yesterday to make it up.

I'm going to pay the ransom to get my parts back and will never go there again.
I know I'm being ripped off (Twice Now), so yes... shame on me.

[Duane Ausherman]

We did not have a minimum charge. To write it up and do a 2 minute light bulb swap and then test ride a bike would take at least 20 minutes, so I guess that you could say that we had a minimum charge.

Actually, for a case like I just described above, I would get the couple of tools and go out to the parking lot and swap it out myself. Then I would charge only the bulb. I explained that this was to avoid the time for the shop. That made friends.

No, my explanation should have explained that we wouldn't charge as you were. If the wheel is off of the bike already, I can change the bearings and also do the preload in 1/2 hour.

We didn't work on parts of bikes, only complete bikes. I was bitten in the ass too many times by working on parts brought into the shop.

I am sorry that you were treated that way. My competitors did the same thing and that made us look great. However, the whole industry looks bad and that isn't good for anybody. It was a constant battle to counteract the general reputation of BMW dealers. Once done, we had a friend/customer for life.

I still today work on two customer's bikes from the early 70s. It gives me a reason to get my hands dirty once in a while. besides, both are friends.

[enigmaT120]

SuperDave, you don't need the tire changing stuff. The balancer works (they go on sale for around half the price you quoted), but don't skimp on tire irons or they will bend. And a gallon of real rubber lube from Napa cost me about 10 dollars and looks like nearly a life time supply.

I farm stuff out to machine shops and can't sleep until I get it back.

[Chuey]

Reading through these posts, my approach as a bicycle mechanic is much like gspd's. Some people like to be dealt with in an up front but not sugar coated way. We get along fine. Some want to have the illusion of saving money. In the end, the way I work costs less. Like Duane, I can, at times, use used parts. I never try to sell parts for my benefit. The way I see it, working on customer's goods should benefit both parties.

Chuey

[Duane Ausherman]

I kept a huge stash of used parts from the dozens of bikes that I parted out. I could sell a perfectly good used part and make as much, maybe more than on a new one. It was never about "my" profit, but giving the best value for the least buck.