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I brought up some examples which argue against your point of view. I did not choose to characterize you, or anyone arguing your points, as unobjective, diatribing, egocentric, self aggrandizing, puffed-up, bigoted, stereotyping, belittling, or bull-shit. Sad that you were unable to do the same.

You can argue with yourself now.

Major Softie wrote:I brought up some examples which argue against your point of view. I did not choose to characterize you, or anyone arguing your points, as unobjective, diatribing, egocentric, self aggrandizing, puffed-up, bigoted, stereotyping, belittling, or bull-shit. Sad that you were unable to do the same.

You can argue with yourself now.

Boy, I can't wait to find out to whom you were responding!

Sorry. I believe you will find all those comments here.

vanzen@rockerboxer.com wrote: The fact remains that if one will objectively observe the situation
one is sure to find that exceptions to the "rule" exist in great enough numbers – on both sides of the fence -
to prove that the only motives that exist as a reason for this kind of diatribe –
are egocentricity and self aggrandizement.

Reduced to essential purpose and intent,"Think they were Beemers"
is simply an excuse to pound our puffed-up chests and proclaim: 'we're just so much better than they are'.
Nothing more and nothing less.

The softening of bigotry with the qualifiers of "most", "many" or "less than 100%" is quite clever
(some of my best friends are Negroes)
but the incorrect assumption and fallacy of a qualitative distinction of "them" and "us" remains firmly in place.
Sorry, Major, that is the chicken AND the egg –
The need to distinguish, stereotype, and belittle those of difference is still bull-sh!t.

Major Softie wrote:Sorry. I believe you will find all those comments here.

No, I am sorry. I must have dozed off.

Pay attention Rob. This is flat view and it's not for the drowsy.

Chuey

I haven't thought this stuff through very well, but the subject does hold some interest for me. The point that it is an us vs them trap is a good one. Pointing out that there are some obvious differences between the types of people attracted to the different bikes is a legitimate point as well.

One thing that I've concluded is that Harley Davidson motorcycles are more often than not purchased as a way to"belong to a club". There's probably a bit of that motivation for most motorcycle purchases but I think it's strongest for the HD crowd. My only real beef with them is the seemingly mandatory loud exhaust dictate. In So Cal. I could say the same thing about pickup trucks and I don't like any loud exhaust any better than any other.

Gretchen has pointed out that some people attempt to buy a lifestyle. Harley has capitalized on that. I saw an ad for a t-shirt that I think was an official HD product that says "Freedom ain't quiet". That sums up my objection to a big circle that encompasses every stage of the phenomenon that is "Harleys". To me, it says "Buy our stuff, which is a ready made lifestyle, and you can be inconsiderate of others in a way that we have succeeded in painting as virtuous by framing it as "patriotic". Brilliant!

It may be that other motorcycle companies would be not be above stooping that low if it would garner more sales, and if they do, I'll think less of their "culture" too.

Please note that it is not riding ability that I an pointing out. I agree with the point that has been made that it is not brand related. Also, I tend to stay away from big bunches on the bike. I'm not a loner but it seems like an accident waiting to happen.

Chuey

Major,
I used two of your quotes to begin my post because I AGREED with the words you had written,
and then mentioned your name at the end only to extend the "chicken / egg" analogy which you had introduced.

True, I am both perplexed and intolerant of the fact that the human tendency to erect defining boundaries and divide our world into opposing camps while fostering the concept of "our superiority to them" remains a powerful and ongoing trait. In my consideration, this will be our ancient "genetics" creeping to the surface to define "our clan" and ensure it's survival against "predators" –
and the source of much grief in our world today even as that mode of survival strategy is mostly unnecessary. This will be the very human trait that every political leader of history chooses to exploit as the justification for war and genocide.
I will say that the poignancy of my post was inspired, at least in part,
by my own tendency to fall into this very same trap.

My "diatribe" against this condition was indeed direct and harsh,
and I suspect that I was even hoping that we would all feel a bit of the heat,
but never was it my intention to single out the Major or any contributor as a victim of attack.
If my writing was perceived as such, that will be my fault.
My ability to express my thoughts correctly and concisely sometimes fall short of my great expectations.

I have always welcomed your thoughts and writings, Major, and hold them in high regard.
I sincerely apologize if offense was taken.

vanzen

Accepted.

I feel better now.

lately, I've been attending the local "Bike Night" gatherings at a Starbucks, out on the main drag. A really nice mix of guys and gals show up. Some Harley riders, Beemer riders, lots of sport bikers, riding everything from track-day beaters to 25K Ducs and then theres me on my old Hot Rod.

So last week we're all standing around drinking coffee, kibitzing and enjoying the first warm evening of the Summer, when so asshole pulls up on a flat black bagger. Half helmet, no gear, the stereo blasting metal music, his open pipes blaattting and if that wasn't enough he kept cranking the throttle, as if his life and manhood depended on it.

The funny thing was that nobody said a word but even the dyed-in-the-wool Harlistas were standing around with their fingers in their ears and frowns on their faces waiting for the twerp to leave, which he thankfully did. Then everybody relaxed and conversation bloomed once more.

Ya just had to be there...! (:>)