Airbear,
It was fun, but it is kind of sad in a way that every technology and equipment you ever worked on is now obsolete. I worked at a repair facility that supplied spares worldwide for 40 years. Electronic as well as complicated precision mechanical assemblies. We used to reverse engineer items supplied by other OEMs to support the repair process, now that was fun, especially when they refused to supply spares.
But back to the files, yes, I do agree with your comment about the point mountain. When I have used the burnishers on auto points, it would not take the point down very fast, and quite frankly it was too fine for the task. Burnishers are better designed to clean and remove oxidation as the old commercial contacts were silver plated. But as you see in the advert, they do offer coarser grits, but no price, darn it.
BMW NOS points note.
Re: BMW NOS points note.
1974 R90/6 built 9/73
1987 BMW K75S
1994 BMW R1100RS
1964 T100SR Triumph
1986 Honda XL600R
1987 BMW K75S
1994 BMW R1100RS
1964 T100SR Triumph
1986 Honda XL600R
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moosehead
- Posts: 463
- Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 7:57 am
- Location: Canukstan...north of the checkerboard
Re: BMW NOS points note.
OK, so where can one get BMW "original" "Non-Chinese" points these days? Motobins not have them... Gerrman ebay?? Never see them on ebay USA anymore.Closest BMW dealer to me is 200kms away...phoned them and they don't have any in stock and the price was outrageous...think the parts guy was laughing at me....he's probably about 23.
Max? Hucky's?...don't know them but guess I can check there as well. Have 2 "points ignition" bikes and so far they've been no problem but ya know...one day....
Would some of the old aircooled VW points work? Got a VW aircooled guy in the neaighbourhood. Maybe take an old set over and see what he says.
Max? Hucky's?...don't know them but guess I can check there as well. Have 2 "points ignition" bikes and so far they've been no problem but ya know...one day....
Would some of the old aircooled VW points work? Got a VW aircooled guy in the neaighbourhood. Maybe take an old set over and see what he says.
Retired from work....not life!
Re: BMW NOS points note.
Arcing causes the pit-and-mound commonly seen on points.
NOW, everyone hold their breath as I'm gonna say "CAPACITOR" again.
A properly sized (electrically!) capacitor will minimize the arcing and therefore the mound-and-pits.
Good points that I've used do have one rounded contact...Bosch for the MB, and Echlin for my old Dodge and Plymouth (both mid 60's). I suppose the cheap ones from various generic auto shops are flat...the replacement ones I have for both the R100s, RS, R/80 and the /5 are rounded. Some of the replacement, non-Bosch points being sold for the old bikes are really badly made too, and the moving arm does not allow the contacts to meet proberly no matter how much you try to bend the fixed side.
I also have a couple of those capacitors with the woven sleeve as shown in the photo and the coating is NOT flaking off. Interesting .
Yes, should only use a points-file on points, and never use it on anything else. I think you can still buy a REAL points-file from NAPA.
I'll go so far as to say if your points show mounds-and-pits after only a few thousand miles (or even less) you have a poor capacitor or the wrong coils...or maybe some fault in the coils that is causing more current than "normal" to flow in the primary circuit. Wiring your coils "backwards" WILL cause a weak spark; I wonder if would cause more arcing since the primary vs. secondary induction is messed-up?
NOW, everyone hold their breath as I'm gonna say "CAPACITOR" again.
A properly sized (electrically!) capacitor will minimize the arcing and therefore the mound-and-pits.
Good points that I've used do have one rounded contact...Bosch for the MB, and Echlin for my old Dodge and Plymouth (both mid 60's). I suppose the cheap ones from various generic auto shops are flat...the replacement ones I have for both the R100s, RS, R/80 and the /5 are rounded. Some of the replacement, non-Bosch points being sold for the old bikes are really badly made too, and the moving arm does not allow the contacts to meet proberly no matter how much you try to bend the fixed side.
I also have a couple of those capacitors with the woven sleeve as shown in the photo and the coating is NOT flaking off. Interesting .
Yes, should only use a points-file on points, and never use it on anything else. I think you can still buy a REAL points-file from NAPA.
I'll go so far as to say if your points show mounds-and-pits after only a few thousand miles (or even less) you have a poor capacitor or the wrong coils...or maybe some fault in the coils that is causing more current than "normal" to flow in the primary circuit. Wiring your coils "backwards" WILL cause a weak spark; I wonder if would cause more arcing since the primary vs. secondary induction is messed-up?
Clemson, SC
R100s, R75/5
R100s, R75/5
Re: BMW NOS points note.
Yeah Jean - I concur I just am making better attempts at not confusing or boring people to death. Our condensers are capacitors; they'd have been called that simply in electronic circuitry maybe three to four decades ago - the name change is likely due to the massive in-flux of different types other than a zillion types of electrolytic's which were some of the most commonly used back in the day (look in my old Bakelite GE AM radio for starters, or any of my vintage guitar amplifiers...)
Also, yes - while lets not get microscopic as it would confuse the issue, the mound and pit deal is going on all the time, if you "SEE IT" going on, there is most likely a problem elsewhere - it "COULD" be the points are out of whack and in very poor alignment, but generally speaking, most people smart enough to install them, time an engine and send it out would not put points in that don't meet properly (surely there are some exceptions by shade tree'ers...)
Agreed, if points do not last, the most common thing to look at and if feasible just change out with the new points is the condenser. Coils have a tendency to get weak (generally as the lacquer degrades on the wires inside) and/or just fail entirely with a dead short. While I've surely not seen it all, nor even a fraction of "it all" I've seen both failures, weak and dead shorts - that would be for both electrically excited "Tesla Tank Circuit" style and magneto style ignitions - snd like so many thiings since I am speaking from a repairman's point of view from what would be brought me, the completely shorted were far more common. Why? well they tolerated pulling the crap out of their mower, or cranking their XYZ engine really hard for far too long until total failure of a winding.
The parts listing shown with the bad wire wrap, the wire wrap is on the points wire, not the condenser as my R75/5 and a good deal of them upwards use (or list) the separate points that connect to the condenser via the spade connector. - There is no wire on the condenser at all; simply a pair or in some cases depending on who made them at what for, four spades. The purpose of that fabric wrap as far as I've ever seen in this or any other application to date has been to help one jam the wire into a groove to hold it in place so the wire is not caught under something like a dip-shit such as myself ended up doing even as I saw it was pretty nasty and starting to "come out" of the fabric. And yeah - that was a first for me, we have the same sort of points for Clinton's and other small engines with that sort of rubberized fabris and it's not that way, '53 Chevy, not that way, lots of stuff not that way, so that was why I put up a warning as it was weird as heck to me - the coating should not have been a coating at all anyway - should have been impregnated into the fabric like everything else I've ever seen. These either failed in a super strange way, or were made differently somehow - they were BMW points too with I think their logo and P/N - I know the condenser had the3ir P/N and maybe a prop logo too...
What else? Oh, regardless of Webster or Wikipedia, anything that burnishes is something that rubs - does not need to include an abrasive; can just be pressure/friction - lots of stuff, but does not *have* to have any compound associated (not to say it does not...)
If anything I've written here disagrees with anything much to speak with what folks have been saying, it is possibly a misprint as I am very rushed. Point is I am agreeing with everyone, but can still give pause and warning to the NOS OEM BMW points (just the breakers) as I have some and likely have more somewhere here that have that same failure. If I were ever to replace my current set with one of those, I would fully cut the fabric off and get some appropriate shrink wrap, even if it needed to layers to help stiffen the wire to keep it in its groove - as the fabric is simply a no-no. Even if it does not cause stupid chaotic mistakes for a n idiot like me on installation, no one wants the equivalent of a half of a latex rubber glove flying about inside the points cover!
And I'll throw one in for good measure to get everyone stirred up!
My assessment has always been and will likely continue to be at least with engine points, if there becomes a need to be filing them, they and that which is causing them to burn up should simply be replaced - used to be very cheaply done; now for our bikes, I might be a convert, but in general, for small one and two cylinder engines, pitted points meant bad condenser, replace both check timing, re-time if necessary (or possible on some designs) and re-check the spark with a "real" spark tester, for which I've not seen in a long time. When in doubt, throw them out and fix the root cause and it won't come back for a long time... To me - NOW THAT'S JUST ME, a file is for a roadside get - her home job, not a twice a year, or every thousand miles deal. Mine looked original at 40 some thousand and I'd almost bet were. If we were talking about reconditioning 100+ year old OTIS elevators, that might be different...
If the spark tester we used at the hardware is still around, I'll steal it and shoot some pictures - it is a good example of something many do not think about when they see some spark, or lay their plug against the head and say, "It's got spark!" It may not have anywhere close to fire in the chamber under compression. They are just simple little doo-dads, perhaps many here are familiar with them; doughnut shaped with end(s) to stick in one of your plug caps and an alligator clip to clip to ground. The gap jumped in open air gosh is likely 5 or more times of that it does in a spark plug buried in one's engine.
I may drop back when I have time late tonight to correct typos - and I did not write any of the business about to file or not to file to get people fired up, Not in the least; it's simply my way and how I learned to do such things. Besides, it was a business and frankly properly filing points cost far more in those days than a new set - even with a little packet of fresh grease enclosed!
Also, yes - while lets not get microscopic as it would confuse the issue, the mound and pit deal is going on all the time, if you "SEE IT" going on, there is most likely a problem elsewhere - it "COULD" be the points are out of whack and in very poor alignment, but generally speaking, most people smart enough to install them, time an engine and send it out would not put points in that don't meet properly (surely there are some exceptions by shade tree'ers...)
Agreed, if points do not last, the most common thing to look at and if feasible just change out with the new points is the condenser. Coils have a tendency to get weak (generally as the lacquer degrades on the wires inside) and/or just fail entirely with a dead short. While I've surely not seen it all, nor even a fraction of "it all" I've seen both failures, weak and dead shorts - that would be for both electrically excited "Tesla Tank Circuit" style and magneto style ignitions - snd like so many thiings since I am speaking from a repairman's point of view from what would be brought me, the completely shorted were far more common. Why? well they tolerated pulling the crap out of their mower, or cranking their XYZ engine really hard for far too long until total failure of a winding.
The parts listing shown with the bad wire wrap, the wire wrap is on the points wire, not the condenser as my R75/5 and a good deal of them upwards use (or list) the separate points that connect to the condenser via the spade connector. - There is no wire on the condenser at all; simply a pair or in some cases depending on who made them at what for, four spades. The purpose of that fabric wrap as far as I've ever seen in this or any other application to date has been to help one jam the wire into a groove to hold it in place so the wire is not caught under something like a dip-shit such as myself ended up doing even as I saw it was pretty nasty and starting to "come out" of the fabric. And yeah - that was a first for me, we have the same sort of points for Clinton's and other small engines with that sort of rubberized fabris and it's not that way, '53 Chevy, not that way, lots of stuff not that way, so that was why I put up a warning as it was weird as heck to me - the coating should not have been a coating at all anyway - should have been impregnated into the fabric like everything else I've ever seen. These either failed in a super strange way, or were made differently somehow - they were BMW points too with I think their logo and P/N - I know the condenser had the3ir P/N and maybe a prop logo too...
What else? Oh, regardless of Webster or Wikipedia, anything that burnishes is something that rubs - does not need to include an abrasive; can just be pressure/friction - lots of stuff, but does not *have* to have any compound associated (not to say it does not...)
If anything I've written here disagrees with anything much to speak with what folks have been saying, it is possibly a misprint as I am very rushed. Point is I am agreeing with everyone, but can still give pause and warning to the NOS OEM BMW points (just the breakers) as I have some and likely have more somewhere here that have that same failure. If I were ever to replace my current set with one of those, I would fully cut the fabric off and get some appropriate shrink wrap, even if it needed to layers to help stiffen the wire to keep it in its groove - as the fabric is simply a no-no. Even if it does not cause stupid chaotic mistakes for a n idiot like me on installation, no one wants the equivalent of a half of a latex rubber glove flying about inside the points cover!
And I'll throw one in for good measure to get everyone stirred up!
My assessment has always been and will likely continue to be at least with engine points, if there becomes a need to be filing them, they and that which is causing them to burn up should simply be replaced - used to be very cheaply done; now for our bikes, I might be a convert, but in general, for small one and two cylinder engines, pitted points meant bad condenser, replace both check timing, re-time if necessary (or possible on some designs) and re-check the spark with a "real" spark tester, for which I've not seen in a long time. When in doubt, throw them out and fix the root cause and it won't come back for a long time... To me - NOW THAT'S JUST ME, a file is for a roadside get - her home job, not a twice a year, or every thousand miles deal. Mine looked original at 40 some thousand and I'd almost bet were. If we were talking about reconditioning 100+ year old OTIS elevators, that might be different...If the spark tester we used at the hardware is still around, I'll steal it and shoot some pictures - it is a good example of something many do not think about when they see some spark, or lay their plug against the head and say, "It's got spark!" It may not have anywhere close to fire in the chamber under compression. They are just simple little doo-dads, perhaps many here are familiar with them; doughnut shaped with end(s) to stick in one of your plug caps and an alligator clip to clip to ground. The gap jumped in open air gosh is likely 5 or more times of that it does in a spark plug buried in one's engine.
I may drop back when I have time late tonight to correct typos - and I did not write any of the business about to file or not to file to get people fired up, Not in the least; it's simply my way and how I learned to do such things. Besides, it was a business and frankly properly filing points cost far more in those days than a new set - even with a little packet of fresh grease enclosed!
1971 R75/5 (SWB)
If you're going to hire MACHETE to kill the bad guy, you better make damn sure the bad guy isn't YOU!
If you're going to hire MACHETE to kill the bad guy, you better make damn sure the bad guy isn't YOU!
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Airbear
- Posts: 2887
- Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 10:02 am
- Location: Oz, lower right hand side, in a bit, just over the lumpy part.
Re: BMW NOS points note.
G'day Jean.
It's all a matter of keeping things going on a very limited budget. I'd love new coils, but they are $125 each here. Capacitors are $30, OEM points $45, all with added postage. I fitted a $10 capacitor from an auto parts shoppe a few years ago and noticed no change. Only recently I discovered that the wiring to my poor old coils had been reversed, and have noticed since that the points need less attention, and the spark looks slightly healthier, I think. I haven't had the opportunity to swap in known good ones for comparison.
I'm trying to manifest some nice newer coils from the universe - they rarely come up here in Oz, and postage from the US for those fat, heavy objects is prohibitive. I don't have any wealthy favourite aunts about to hop off the perch. Something will turn up one day. Cheers.
Dwire, ol' chap, you sure can bang out a lot of words.
It's all a matter of keeping things going on a very limited budget. I'd love new coils, but they are $125 each here. Capacitors are $30, OEM points $45, all with added postage. I fitted a $10 capacitor from an auto parts shoppe a few years ago and noticed no change. Only recently I discovered that the wiring to my poor old coils had been reversed, and have noticed since that the points need less attention, and the spark looks slightly healthier, I think. I haven't had the opportunity to swap in known good ones for comparison.
I'm trying to manifest some nice newer coils from the universe - they rarely come up here in Oz, and postage from the US for those fat, heavy objects is prohibitive. I don't have any wealthy favourite aunts about to hop off the perch. Something will turn up one day. Cheers.
Dwire, ol' chap, you sure can bang out a lot of words.
Charlie
and Brunhilde - 1974 R90/6
Graduate, Wallace and Gromit School of Engineering and Design (Pending)
and Brunhilde - 1974 R90/6
Graduate, Wallace and Gromit School of Engineering and Design (Pending)
Re: BMW NOS points note.
Airbear I had a problem when I got Bosch blues when 1 failed, I junked the blues and went to auto zone (don't think you guys have them down under)Airbear wrote:G'day Jean.
It's all a matter of keeping things going on a very limited budget. I'd love new coils, but they are $125 each here. Capacitors are $30, OEM points $45, all with added postage. I fitted a $10 capacitor from an auto parts shoppe a few years ago and noticed no change. Only recently I discovered that the wiring to my poor old coils had been reversed, and have noticed since that the points need less attention, and the spark looks slightly healthier, I think. I haven't had the opportunity to swap in known good ones for comparison.
I'm trying to manifest some nice newer coils from the universe - they rarely come up here in Oz, and postage from the US for those fat, heavy objects is prohibitive. I don't have any wealthy favourite aunts about to hop off the perch. Something will turn up one day. Cheers.
Dwire, ol' chap, you sure can bang out a lot of words.
BUT I went there I Got a matched set USA made same spec set of coils Like Blues for $10.00 US
bike runs great so maybe?
Maybe you have something similer to make that happen after all a coil is a coil
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Airbear
- Posts: 2887
- Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 10:02 am
- Location: Oz, lower right hand side, in a bit, just over the lumpy part.
Re: BMW NOS points note.
Good thought, Lyman. My search continues.
Charlie
and Brunhilde - 1974 R90/6
Graduate, Wallace and Gromit School of Engineering and Design (Pending)
and Brunhilde - 1974 R90/6
Graduate, Wallace and Gromit School of Engineering and Design (Pending)
Re: BMW NOS points note.
Good Luck then, hope for a good message of success
Re: BMW NOS points note.
I bought a pair of 3 y.o.Bosch OE coils form Germany for 50 buckeroonies.
It was a pity to change my perfectly functioning 31 y.o. coils
It was a pity to change my perfectly functioning 31 y.o. coils
Lord of the Bings
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Deleted User 62
Re: BMW NOS points note.
If you ever want to go to Bosch Blues (usually silver now) this is the best price I could find: http://www.busdepot.com/ignition-system/111905105h I don't know if they ship to Oz, but if you like I can First Class some your way.ME 109 wrote:I bought a pair of 3 y.o.Bosch OE coils form Germany for 50 buckeroonies.
It was a pity to change my perfectly functioning 31 y.o. coils