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Major Softie wrote:

Tim Shepherd wrote: BTW, aren't ALL ignitions electronic? (just sayin')

Hmmmmm, excellent question. Certainly, every electronic ignition has a mechanical component to identify timing. Even if it is an electronic sensor, part of it is mechanically rotating to identify crank and/or cam position. The hybrid "bean can" system is very mechanical for an "electronic" ignition. And coils and condensors are certainly electronic devices.

Still, advance mechanisms can be purely mechanical or purely electronic.

Interestingly, I would have to dispute the last. The definition of Electronics refers to the movement of electrons in a vacuum, a gaseous medium or semiconductor. By that measure, the coil and the condensor are not 'electronic' (the spark plug could be a different matter ). An electronic device is a device that uses the principles of electronics.

Valves, diodes, transistors, FETs & etc. are electronic while resistors, capacitors, inductors, switches, motors & etc are not (at least in their basic form).

Totally bored at work.

Rob

Rob Frankham wrote:
Interestingly, I would have to dispute the last. The definition of Electronics refers to the movement of electrons in a vacuum, a gaseous medium or semiconductor. By that measure, the coil and the condensor are not 'electronic' (the spark plug could be a different matter ). An electronic device is a device that uses the principles of electronics.

Valves, diodes, transistors, FETs & etc. are electronic while resistors, capacitors, inductors, switches, motors & etc are not (at least in their basic form).

Totally bored at work.

Rob

Very interesting. I have always considered resistors and capacitors as part of the electronics of an electronic device. I wonder if I just got it wrong, or if there is a definite difference between the technical definition and the common layperson definition.

By the way, when you say "dispute the last," you didn't really mean "the last," did you? That would be "Still, advance mechanisms can be purely mechanical or purely electronic." I presume you are actually disputing "And, coils and condensors are certainly electronic devices."

MS, maybe its a thing from across the pond. In my 55 years as a ham radio operator, I have never heard Rob's assertions before.

I can support Rob's view from across the pond. I've spent my whole career in "electronics" of one sort or another and have always understood an electronic device to include active components like transistors as well as passive devices like resistors. Certainly electronic ignition implies that a semi conductor switching circuit is involved. When I originally trained on valves I don't recall them being described as electronic. They were called thermionic from the heat that was needed to encourage emission of electrons.

I liked valves because they were easy to understand though I doubt they were ever used for automotive ignition systems as the required high anode voltage is not readily available. On the other hand they did have valve radios in cars so it may have been possible. They would have used some sort of electro mechanical chopper device to create the high voltage supply.

barryh wrote:I can support Rob's view from across the pond. I've spent my whole career in "electronics" of one sort or another and have always understood an electronic device to include active components like transistors as well as passive devices like resistors. Certainly electronic ignition implies that a semi conductor switching circuit is involved. When I originally trained on valves I don't recall them being described as electronic. They were called thermionic from the heat that was needed to encourage emission of electrons.

I liked valves because they were easy to understand though I doubt they were ever used for automotive ignition systems as the required high anode voltage is not readily available. On the other hand they did have valve radios in cars so it may have been possible. They would have used some sort of electro mechanical chopper device to create the high voltage supply.

Yeah, I've seen the tube (that's what we call them) radios in old cars, so they found some solution to the voltage issue, but I don't know what it was. It would be easy if the car had an alternator and you drew alternating current for the radio, but that was also when all cars had DC generators.

It's a long time ago but from what I recall the 12V dc was chopped by an oscillating relay not dissimilar to a mechanical voltage regulator. You then have an alternating current that can be pushed through a transformer to produce a higher voltage. Modern DC to AC inverters do the same thing with semiconductor switching.

Duane Ausherman wrote:MS, maybe its a thing from across the pond. In my 55 years as a ham radio operator, I have never heard Rob's assertions before.

As a matter of interest, the definition I plagiarised comes from a web dictionary based in... you guessed it... California. Apparently, the term was first used between 36BDA and 31BDA (That is to say Before Duane Ausherman, i.e. 1905 to 1910 by the normal reckoning... ).

AAMOF, I suspect this is one of those words that is evolving and will eventually have a much wider meaning than the strict original definition of the term.

Rob

Rob Frankham wrote:

Duane Ausherman wrote:MS, maybe its a thing from across the pond. In my 55 years as a ham radio operator, I have never heard Rob's assertions before.

As a matter of interest, the definition I plagiarised comes from a web dictionary based in... you guessed it... California. Apparently, the term was first used between 36BDA and 31BDA (That is to say Before Duane Ausherman, i.e. 1905 to 1910 by the normal reckoning... ).

AAMOF, I suspect this is one of those words that is evolving and will eventually have a much wider meaning than the strict original definition of the term.

Rob

I assumed you were using a more technical definition from the electronics field. In more common usage dictionaries, Google provides:

e·lec·tron·ic

adjective /ilekˈtränik/  /ˌēlek-/ 

(of a device) Having or operating with the aid of many small components, esp. microchips and transistors, that control and direct an electric current
- an electronic calculator

(of music) Produced by electronic instruments

Of or relating to electronics
- a degree in electronic engineering

Of or relating to electrons

Relating to or carried out using a computer or other electronic device, esp. over a network
- electronic banking
http://www.google.com/search?q=electron ... 80&bih=657

So it's only "especially" including those using semi-conductors. Yet, at the same resource, it defines "electronics" as:

e·lec·tron·ics

noun (plural) /ilekˈträniks/  /ˌēlek-/ 
electronics, plural

The branch of physics and technology concerned with the design of circuits using transistors and microchips, and with the behavior and movement of electrons in a semiconductor, conductor, vacuum, or gas
- electronics is seen as a growth industry
- electronics engineers

Circuits or devices using transistors, microchips, and other components
http://www.google.com/search?q=electron ... 80&bih=657

So, the adjective can refer to a process using just resistors and capacitors, while the noun describes a device which requires semi-conductors, all from the same resource! No wonder we don't all think it means the same thing.

Hmmm,

I think the important phraseology in the first definition is "small components, esp. microchips and transistors, that control and direct an electric current". To me, at least, control and direct, implies active components that is to say transistors and microchips but also the many other kinds of active components like valves, JFETs, MOSFETs, UJTs, Thyristors, SCRs & etc. etc. All of these control and/or direct current. but nor pasive components like resistors, capacitors and inductors.

Heigh Ho, it's all a bit academic anyway...

Rob

Makes sense to me.