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PITAPan wrote:

ChuckyShamrok wrote:I edited my post, at both full advance and full retard of the points, they open before the F mark on the flywheel.

And the shop I'm working out of gets unholy cold too, Got a propane jet heater to take the chill off. Even with wool socks and insulated pants it gets frosty at times.

set it to S with the advance weights fully closed by their springs.

I think that what Chucky is trying to tell you is that he can't get near the S when the points are opening, regardless of how he twists that plate. Curious.

Exactly what Airbear said. How would I go about checking the Cam and Crank timing without tearing the engine apart again?

ChuckyShamrok wrote:Exactly what Airbear said. How would I go about checking the Cam and Crank timing without tearing the engine apart again?

if you did not mess with the timing chain or pull the flywheel, it is correct. When you set the valves if the pistons were on TDC when the flywheel was on OT and both pushrods spun freely (ie, valves closed), you're good. You did check them, right? The relationship of the cam and the crank is revealed right under your rocker covers just by looking.

I suspect you have something mis-assembled in that points area. Do you have the tits on the points plate centered with the one (forget which side has the two) on the case? Points back wards somehow? wrong points? points cam shaft not correctly seated on the D end of the engine cam nose? Can you take a pic?

Edit: How are you calling it when the points open? Exactly---describe your procedure in detail. May be some trivial bug there...

With flywheel set to OT, the left valves are free, the right valves, intake is free and there is pressure, but not a lot on the exhaust valve, like the valve is just beginning to open

the tits on the plate match the tit on the cover you pry against to adjust point gap/ Timing. I'll take a pic of it tomorrow. The ATU is set correctly on the keyed part of the cam nose.

I'm calling the points as being open by putting the positive lead of the ohmmeter on the points wire, the negative lead is connected to ground. I SLOWLY spin the motor over and watch when the ohmeter shows a broken circuit. when the points are closed I get a reading of 0.00.

Dumb question, PO was setting the bike up for Dual plugs, could he have adjusted the mechanical timing for some odd reason?

ChuckyShamrok wrote:/snip
Dumb question, PO was setting the bike up for Dual plugs, could he have adjusted the mechanical timing for some odd reason?

for dual plugging, you might cut off the ends of the weights or fit different springs. neither affect static timing.

told ya how to do it. can't help if you do something else.


need sleep

Im focusing on getting the bike on the road, Dual plugging it can wait till later. the ATU seems to be fine, the weights tuck up fine, and they move free when I do poke at em. Ill pick up a test light tomorrow and go off what you've said word for word. I have to stop by and pick up some tools to help fix my buddies car, ill take a pic of the points set up when I'm there.

PITAPan wrote: if you did not mess with the timing chain or pull the flywheel, it is correct.

Not sure why you keep assuring him of this. He bought it (according to him) as a virtual basket case. How can we be certain of ANYTHING the PO may have done?

ChuckyShamrok wrote:Im focusing on getting the bike on the road, Dual plugging it can wait till later. the ATU seems to be fine, the weights tuck up fine, and they move free when I do poke at em. Ill pick up a test light tomorrow and go off what you've said word for word. I have to stop by and pick up some tools to help fix my buddies car, ill take a pic of the points set up when I'm there.

Got some rest. much mo' bettah'.

Let me clarify: There are many roads to Rome. A number of different things will work. That ohm meter routine should work fine---but maybe not too. More importantly it's bassawkwards enough that if you aren't getting results, I can't say something solid about why. Someone that does it that way could say more and/or say better. I'm trying to corral you towards my way of doing things because I have the most experience there and can give you the strongest advice. I'm not saying my way is the best way. I started out learning someone elses way of doing thing. The guy has massive experience on the engines so it made sense to me. I've modified how I work over a whole lot of years, incorporating techniques from others.

To dual plug an engine you have the heads drilled for a lower plug. Then you put on dual nose coils and add extra wires for the lower plugs. Then you fit some kind of electronic ignition to handle the load of the big coils. (The points will cook pretty quick). There are three types of electronic ignition.

1)points are left and not used. ignition bolts to alternator and runs off crank. ECU module somewhere on frame.

2) points are replaced with electronic pickup. ECU module somewhere on frame.

3) points are retained and used with a booster module located somewhere on frame. Here the points carry a small load and just trigger the booster.


BUT, some people use #3 with a stock points setup and single plugs. It makes the points last forever. This might not be so obvious. Points and all look the same, but there is the booster module lashed to the frame someplace. If you have a metal box, 3" long, 1 1/2" wide and 1' thick with fins on top and "Dyna ignition Booster" molded into it, you have a booster setup. it will be feeding the coils. Look for one. It's a game changer.

ALL types of electronic ignitions are used with single points, for a variety of reasons. if somebody put a crank mounted on your bike (not likely, they are $$$$) and left the points on as backup, then you could test your points with an ohmmeter all day long and you wouldn't be working on the actual ignition. A test light would reveal immediately that there is no power going to them and I wouldn't have to think up this long-shot scenario.

I imagine if you had lower spark plugs in the heads you would have noticed.

Whenever possible test things in as close to operating condition as you can get. You can test the resistance across a switch, but mostly you are interested in in the thing is getting power across it. So lest for the presence of voltage in the running condition. A test light does that. (Do not use an LED one!)

I have carried a small pencil type Micronta DVM under the seat for I dunno how long. They don't make them anymore AFAIK. It has resolved things twice when I had an electrical failure far from home (Both bad rotors). Then it stopped working and got tossed into a junk bin. I carried one of the larger flukes if I was worried, I just had them. One day it occurred to me that old pencil meter maybe wanted a battery? Sure enough, it works once more. I always carried a test light too, just for setting timing. Dual microclips and an armored bulb. Bulletproof, easy to use, fast. Still have it, still works. More recently I got a regular probe type test light and I'm learning the various tricks to using it. It does 99.9% of what needs doing--if I know what I'm doing. No batteries to crap out. I've had soooo many batteries dead when I needed them, and so many devices damaged by them, some expensive, that I am trying to minimize them in my life. I have to pull the batteries from all my meters, scales, flashlights and measuring tools whenever I'm done using them. No more trashed devices. I could buy uber expensive 10 year batteries for some things I suppose---but then I have big problems with the irrigation system or something and I'm using the meter all day long---or I'm doing thermal studies and chewing up batteries in the temp meters---there go my costly long storage life batteries.

I also try to do the majority of my service work with the under seat toolkit. If I need a tool I don't carry I want to know about it.


When you set valves you set the side that is on TDC compression. This is the only time both valves are closed and the piston is in a known location. The other side is on some other stroke, both valves won't be closed. Valve overlap, remember? So when you go to set one side, you spin the pushrods. If both valves are closed they both spin freely (unless a valve is very tight, BAD). After setting you spin them again, they better both be free. You push on the pushrod side of the rocker with your thumb to take up the slack when using your feeler gauge at the top of the valve. You use go/no-go gauges to make it faster, more accurate and to decrease the chances of errors. Elaines article leaves a few points to be desired---like both of those. Checking your gaps with multiple gauges (essentially doing Go/No-go with different blades) will work, even though clumsy. But then you have a bunch off different blades in the work area. Worth avoiding. Pick up the wrong one without noticing just one time and you screwed up the job. Feeler gauge sets are so cheap there is no need to do anything else---unless you really can't get them which happens many places in the world. The feeler gauges in the toolkit have a thing for setting the under tank MC. The rest are pointless. Real gauges work circles around them and 3 go/no-go blades fit in the toolkit just fine.

You also keep the blade for the points separate so it doesn't get oily. I would dedicate it for emergencies only and heat seal it in a pouch with a set of points and condenser. Regular old seal-a-meal bag, trimmed down. Get the biggest one you can find at a thrift store. Very costly for sealing food but real handy for more important things like carry-along back-up parts that may be getting damp for many years before being needed. Many a story of , "Yeah, my spare points were a rusted up blob when I really needed them."

I Use the bags on new bearings in storage too, wrap them in oily paper towel or the original oiled paper + more oil.


Guy I used to work for (best boss I ever had) had a saying: "If you don't know what to do, do what you do know". He was speaking of some very complex carpentry. Point was, if you don't know how to go on some part of the job, work on some other part you do know. Keeps you productive and the job moving along. So if the ignition is being difficult, pull off and work on something else. Wheels can come in the house and be worked on in front of the wood stove while you are waiting on your new books to arrive. Like that.

I hear the riding weather is so nice on the East Coast this time of year. Get it running and you really do want to ride it and get on with breaking in the top end. Getting it running closer to spring may work out better. I will get a few rides in over the winter but I keep the tanks full and Seafoam in the gas and start the bike once a week and run the oil over 220F. If it sits it gets piggy about starting. The Seafoam, some StaBil, both, etc. is important. I'd do that now.

Edeit:

Get the new points in yet? Compare carefully to the old. OP could have put who-knows-what in there--especially if they look too brand new (ie, won't run with them).

Haven't got the points yet. Was selling parts out of the barn while waiting and poked at the bike a bit. Checked the valves, They are correct according to what you said, one side would have both pushrods spinable while the other side would have the exhaust valve under pressure. Spin the motor over 360* and the opposite side would have the pushrods spinable while the other side would have the exhaust valve under pressure. Went to check points with a test light, No light at all, checked test light on a battery, and no light, so I'll have to return it and get another.

ChuckyShamrok wrote:Haven't got the points yet. Was selling parts out of the barn while waiting and poked at the bike a bit. Checked the valves, They are correct according to what you said, one side would have both pushrods spinable while the other side would have the exhaust valve under pressure. Spin the motor over 360* and the opposite side would have the pushrods spinable while the other side would have the exhaust valve under pressure. Went to check points with a test light, No light at all, checked test light on a battery, and no light, so I'll have to return it and get another.

I hate to say it but I cracked up. It's a challenging project...you aren't familiar with the basic system much less this particular execution of it, the PO probably monkeyed with it so what you got may not be what you supposed to got, it's about the slowest time of year to get parts shipped to you...and then your new test light comes up dead. At least the price on the labor is right

Did you evaluate or work on the valves when you had the heads off? To what did you set the valves? Are the cylinders/pistons A, B or C?

Did you check by looking at the piston if it actually is at TDC when the OT mark on the flywheel is in the window? That's a quick check that will reveal if the flywheel is on a bolt off. It is not keyed so you can put it on 5 ways. 4 are wrong. With talent you can put it on 10 ways and 9 are wrong. Never tried that other set of 5 ways....Anyway when you are sure the flywheel is right then having both valves closed on TDC compression means the cam is falling in line. If it wasn't then on TDC compression you would have a tight valve--on both sides---if the cam is closing them late. One tooth off at the cam is a lot. You might be closing both early but you can spot that too.