Page 4 of 7
Re: GROUND/STARTER CABLES...
Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:19 pm
by dwire
Yes, I see on that Sir. You are measuring electrons that prefer flow though the meter as compared to the connection of contacts, logical, but not clear where the control is. Would just as sensitive analog meter with a completely different impedance still reap the same result on that exact test?
Re: GROUND/STARTER CABLES...
Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:39 pm
by Garnet
By control do you mean resistance?
This method checks that every connection or switch is of adiquate size and condition for the load that it is intended to carry and only causes a .1v drop/connection, without haveing to know the rateing of the switch.
This is a helpful test elswhere. 100w headlamp bulbs spring to mind. You do a drop test across the high/low switch with the 55/60 bulb and then try the 85/100 bulb. That will tell you weather the switch can handle the load, or if you need a relay.
Re: GROUND/STARTER CABLES...
Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 2:03 pm
by dwire
Ahh, thought a bit about the entire affair, not applied to this really and understood what the one constant is. The essential "zero resistance" (surely not true...) of said item under test. Battery cable "should be" as close to zero resistance as its design allows. -> just like your example of across the solenoid. Answered my own questions, including above; meter is irrelevant.
The issue for me being "on-board" so much is that I've done a lot of this and was taught by very smart (and very old, OK now dead...) MECHANICS that had very little understanding of electricity or electronics, so my habits lean accordingly when it comes to the procedure with said systems. These older folks also preferred to "skip steps" along the way since they had seen the most common failures with starters, generators and alternators. If one's windings or bearings are bad, you need to run your series testing all the way to the starter to know that and all that you have tested is now irrelevant and would mean nothing to speak of. I guess I learned the wrong way, skip to the most likely region after seeing the symptoms. Sort of the "Foil Method" for starters. Not for everyone indeed...
All I needed do was think of measuring DC across a resistor and I felt stupid. The key to doing any of this, either way starts at the battery, since for instance a good cable should have near no resistance, dropping the voltage from say 13 to 10, would then change your reading; whether the cable is faulty or not. (Oh, yeah, also would be responsible for a "slow-cranker" though anyhow...)

and of course if the fault is in the starter, everything in front of it must be tested all the way to the starter and then is not too relevant once you find the starter is bad. A high current drawing starter would show up as a consistently high reading on all of those tests would it not? I guess you remember those and go back to any that were higher in proportion to the others or proportionately out of whack with what is expected - no?
Thanks everyone for your patience. I am certain, there is plenty here that might be insightful to others. Including how someone that very well "should know better" ONCE AGAIN cannot see the forest for the trees in front of him... (me) LOL!
Thanks all.
Re: GROUND/STARTER CABLES...
Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 2:51 pm
by Duane Ausherman
Garnet wrote:By control do you mean resistance?
This is a helpful test elswhere. 100w headlamp bulbs spring to mind. You do a drop test across the high/low switch with the 55/60 bulb and then try the 85/100 bulb. That will tell you weather the switch can handle the load, or if you need a relay.
Garnet, not related, but did you know that the resistance across an incandescent bulb changes with respect to the current? They are not linear.
The hi/lo switch may be good and linear, but still fail in handling the current. The switch fails from a few things, but a major one is heat. The resistance could well be within the spec and as the current rises, the heat will increase. I would prefer to get the manufacturers spec, which we never will.
Re: GROUND/STARTER CABLES...
Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 3:30 pm
by Garnet
Yes Duane my examlpe was a poor choice, but the voltage drop at the switch will indicate that heat will soon be building up. More importantly, the switch will probably fail from the arcing that happens internily every time it is switched, because it is carrying a higher load than designed, hence the need for specs.

YIKES!!!
Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 6:40 pm
by dougie
I asked about my battery cables.
Now I think I have a university degree in electrical engineering.
Thanks folks, I'm saving this one on my computer.
Re: GROUND/STARTER CABLES...
Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 8:03 pm
by dwire
This, (knowledge of any kind) is a good thing.
So much here and really little about your specific question after a few posts. I can always learn new things. One thing that sadly need be pounded into me again and again is that others would be best served by myself with specific procedures on things I know very little about. Complacency with regard to detail(s) can get you every time.
Duane and garnet's methodology and techniques are sound. I think if we were all being candid and called things as they really are, many likely fall into the same pitfalls as I. We never had time to
not do things as rapidly as possible with diagnosis as it did not pay; the repair itself did. Like a battery cable, we could talk all day about ways to test them, or any other doo-dad in the starting circuit, but most things, after an accumulation of samplings, "If it smells like a rose, it's probably a rose..." There are always going to be "fliers" or irregularities, but time saved on 100 is rarely blown on those scarcities. I'm sure I have never checked the resistance of a battery cable. (Though yes, I've used test benches devised for such things, though don't directly read it either...) The point being, we are neither in a for-profit or production situation here with BMW motorcycles for pleasure, so steps A-Z are indeed in order; I missed the boat on that BIG-TIME.
The good thing is, everyone that needs to learn from it can, myself (especially) included - certainly; more than the rest. As long as discussions like these can go on here and elsewhere
and everyone walks away friends, it is immaterial how far the train was derailed on its path, for the fuel in the furnace is all the train really needs to move forward...
It frequently goes this route for me. While a few might think I know this or that, NO. I need learn more than the lot of you.
Enjoy your Holiday everyone and may you spend it among family friends and loved ones.

Re: GROUND/STARTER CABLES...
Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 10:05 pm
by Duane Ausherman
dougie, this is an excellent example of thread degradation. However, I must confess that it is obvious that both Doug and Garnet have a considerable understanding of electrons and how to play with them. Were we all around the same campfire, we would really bore people, but have a lot of fun.
I value all of you folks and while I can be quite cryptic in words, my speech is better. I would never want to walk away with bad feelings over these areas where we muse forever. In that case, I would be an addict without a supply. Not good.
Re: Making Battery Cables
Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 2:24 am
by Sibbo
Seconded on the use of arc welder cable Ken , it's excellent stuff .I do as you describe but forgot the heat shrink sleeve . Mr Ausherman reckons he's cryptic ... I'm positively constipated !
Ken in Oklahoma wrote:I've been making my own battery cables for a while now. The result is, IMNSHO, much better than new stock BMW cables.
For the cable part I use #4 AWG "lead" cable, or at least that's what I think it's called. It is commonly used for connecting the arc welder “high” to the electrode holder. The cable has a rubber insulation (not PVC or other plastic) and has fine wire strands for flexibility. This is a wonderful cable, if you've ever wrestled with the stock BMW cables trying to get them to lay correctly. It naturally costs more than cheaper cable, but you will end up with a battery cable that will cost much less than the eBay cables.
I cut the ground cable to length a few inches longer than the stock BMW cables. This gives me some flexibility (no pun intended) if I use a non stock battery with the positive and negative posts on different sides from the stock battery. The longer ground cable also allows me to use a different grounding point on the L/H side of the transmission, thus eliminating the possibility of stripping the threads in the usual location at the speedometer take off point.
For the cable ends I use plain #4AWG ring terminals. So far I have only found these in copper. I would like to find the steel version for durability.
Strip about a half inch of rubber jacket away and you're ready to fix the terminal onto the cable. This is where you need to make a special tool to do the crimp that is required. I measure the O.D. of the ring terminal barrel and find a drill bit of the same diameter or slightly larger. Then I drill a hole in a piece of hardwood, say about 1/2" thick. Aluminum or even steel would work fine too.
Now I cut half of the hole (or less) off the hole I just drilled away, leaving a half hole. This will be your anvil for crimping the terminal onto the cable. I hold the anvil in a vice for the actual crimping operation.
Now you need to make a punch to do the crimping operation. For this I ground the end of an old chisel, rounding it so that the indentation in the ring terminal will be smooth. A mild steel rod with the end ground appropriately would work too.
You’re already figured out the rest. You put the terminal on over the bare wire, hold it in place on the anvil, barrel split downward, then smack the barrel part of the terminal with a hammer and punch. You’ll have to judge how much is enough.
Now I will hold the freshly installed terminal in a vice and solder the connection. Rosin core solder of course. I hold the terminal with the cable pointing up. That is so gravity will help wick the solder in the correct direction. I use a small butane torch with its precise flame for heat. A large soldering iron would work too, and you wouldn’t have to be careful of the flame. Be careful because the solder will still wick upward and you will have stiffened about an inch of the cable before you know it. You can guess how I figured out this bit of wisdom.
Putting some shrink tubing over the junction will make the job look professional.
Ken
Re: GROUND/STARTER CABLES...
Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 2:53 am
by dwire
Duane Ausherman wrote:dougie, this is an excellent example of thread degradation. However, I must confess that it is obvious that both Doug and Garnet have a considerable understanding of electrons and how to play with them. Were we all around the same campfire, we would really bore people, but have a lot of fun.
I value all of you folks and while I can be quite cryptic in words, my speech is better. I would never want to walk away with bad feelings over these areas where we muse forever. In that case, I would be an addict without a supply. Not good.
Some day, among other topics for personal discussion and reflection, perhaps you could give me some pointers on summing things up as briefly, accurately and eloquently as you always do.