Boxerworks.com

Stock spoked wheel = 9 pounds 10 ounces
Snowflake wheel = 12pounds 3 ounces
Lester wheel = 12pounds 0 ounces

Not from Ken:
The benefits of the lesser unsprung weight of a spoked wheel
must be evaluated vs the increased lateral stiffness of the cast wheel
in order to asses real world handling / braking advantage on the street.

Also crucial in this evaluation will be the additional weight of a tube ...
which does not need to be an added factor in the consideration of a cast wheel.

I'm curious, what does a tube weigh?

Ran out to the garage and pulled down an ancient 19" natural rubber tube –
I mostly use these things to cut into bits for vibration-proof accessory mountings ...
This one was intact, it weighs roughly 2 pounds or @ 907 grams.

Ken in Oklahoma wrote: All three wheels were, of course, not intended to be run tubeless.

Some Lesters were NHTSA / D.O.T. compliant for tubeless operation ...
if memory serves me, and it often does not ...
These examples should be clearly designated with a stamping of "MT"

The difference between a WM2 (tube-type) and MT (tubeless) ?
Just inboard of the vertical part which holds the bead and sidewall of a tire
(virtually identical on WM2, MT, and MTH2 rims)
a WM2 will be horizontal, but an MT will have 5º of upward angle.
This will be the NHTSA / D.O.T. mandated design change intended to hold the tubeless tire onto the rim.
In addition to this 5º angle change, later MTH2 rims also had a "bump" or "bead" just before the drop center
to prevent the tire from dropping to the center of the rim.

BMW "Y" spoked cast wheels were designated MT,
the later "3" spoked cast wheels,
and to my knowledge, every cast and tubeless spoked wheel since the "3" spoke -
are MTH2 ...
if memory serves me, and it often does not ...

Odd that we will all be so concerned about the lack of a "safety bead" on a flake ...
when the first gen approved tubeless rims never even had such, eh ?

But then, what could one silly, blind, and ignorant MC junkie possibly know ?

vanzen@rockerboxer.com wrote:

Motorhead wrote:

moonbeamerll wrote:Where's Funholiday when we need him to settle the matter once and for all?

Hope He's lost somewhere

too many agruments with no proof, when the card came down

A very smart guy when it came to airhead mechanics
even as communication skills lagged.
When push came to shove – The man (often) knew some sh!t ...

"A very smart guy when it came to airhead mechanics." That is as wrong as it could possibly be. "The man (often) knew some sh!t" is absolutely true, but "smart" requires intelligence and comprehension. "Knowing" things is knowledge; it is not intelligence. He did not lack "communication skills." He lacked the tools required to participate in intelligent discussion. What Fun had was a lot of experience and a lot of opinions based on that experience, but he didn't understand how to intelligently analyze his experience so that he could identify the difference between what worked and WHY it worked. He frequently made completely nonsensical leaps and said incredibly stupid things because of this difficulty.

"Smart" is not the appropriate word. It is, in fact, the inverse of the correct word.

vanzen@rockerboxer.com wrote:But then, what could one silly, blind, and ignorant MC junkie possibly know ?

You know how I hate it when you call me that....

I'm not sure what Fun had to do with trams --- I never had any trouble from him, except he told me I needed a new battery when I didn't, but a little thinking would have saved me - so I learned a lesson from him.
I learned from others not to pick a fight with him.

So ........... thanks Ken, for your excellent response to Wirewkrs post. It said it for me, and I imagine many others.

However - I do believe we have an asset in Wirewkr, as long as we recognise the particular talent he demonstrates to a singular perfection.
It takes skill to patronise, (that means to talk down to, Wirewkr), the likes of yourself and Vanzen, and any other experienced rider/mechanic who has a contrary opinion. His words and attitude are straight out of the book of government patter designed to make us feel inferior and incapable, with warnings and dire prognostications concerning the inescapable calumny awaiting those who ignore his proffered wisdom.

Surely with all the expertise we have here, there's a place for someone who clearly demonstrates the folly of being incapable of positive and fruitful exchange.
After all, "There but for the grace of god" .....etc.

If Fun had not been challenged, we would have learned more from him I think. Some felt our pages too sacrosanct for the inclusion of anything they disagreed with, and were afraid that other posters may have been misled unless the entrails of the miscreant were spread out in the sun to dry.
I'd be happy to see more free expression of controversial opinions, and since he does nothing but entertain me, Wirewkr's pretentious blandishments.

Sunbeem.

Ya shore do talk purdy, Sunbeem.
Try and explain "Wasted-spark" to one of these young'uns, now.
On another thread.

As a long time lurker and very occasional poster I just like say how much I appreciate the willingness of many here to have a high quality intelligent debate on this topic. Even if there is no final agreement "It's better to debate a question without settling it than to settle a question without debating it" (Joseph Joubert).

And to throw in one of my life long favorite quotations. To anyone who thinks they have a monopoly on knowledge "I beseech you in the bowels of Christ think it possible you may be mistaken" (Oliver Cromwell).

My own opinion. At my first airhead (and alloy wheel) tire change in comparison to my previous spoked rims I was surprised by two things: the real difficulty I had in breaking the bead and the combined weight of a snowflake and heavy duty natural rubber tube. It was surely a step back to increase weight in one of the most important places on a motorcycle. Running a snowflake tubeless goes some way to putting that right and if it's always that hard to break the bead I don't see it being that easily dislodged in road use.

"... if it's always that hard to break the bead I don't see it being that easily dislodged in road use."

Good point Barry, you make me wonder if we should be careful what lubrication we use to fit the tyre, does washing-up liquid remain slippery for long ...?
Would a little roughening of the rim surface be a bad thing ?

Sunbeem.

PS. I like Joubert's "The purpose of debate is not victory, but progress" (D'ya reckon he was always losing arguments ?)

Sunbeem wrote: does washing-up liquid remain slippery for long ...?

Washing up liquid contains salt as a rinse agent and shouldn't be used to fit tyres as it will corrode the rims - whether you use a tube or not...