Tire Recommendations

[Major Softie]

dwire, sorry if you thought I was poking at you - I wasn't. Just responding to where I thought your post was correct and the circumstances where it wasn't. I see you disagree: okay. I have not changed your opinion, nor you mine. Your description of a panic stop sliding you up to the speedo was intended to demonstrate the power of your brakes. To me it demonstrates a rider losing control of his body on the bike. I can assure you, no matter how powerful you think that stop was, it doesn't compare to modern sport-bikes and their modern tires, or even modern BMW's, and riders of those bikes do not slide up to the speedometer when fully utilizing their brakes - not unless they've done something terribly wrong. But, as I say, I have not changed your opinion, nor you mine.

The "attractive" comment was a tiny little poke, entirely in fun, but most certainly not at you.

[Motorhead]

I find dwires coments about over the bar brakeing hard to beleve

the discription of where the location of body mass was

BUT I've also done things that most won't beleave....... I added this update later than another post as maybe I should just pointed out what I'm saying.............

not about brakes or operational effects maybe this is too late and if the OP could be moved that way that easy never had the tranny shimming coments I got from FunHoliday.......... sometimes the info does not match what one wants or have access to perform

[dwire]

I'll make it short and easy as I am tired of this and as well do not understand why the vast majority here wanted to flame the OP right off the board. Anyhow. Believe what you like Motorhead, I'd have no reason to depict myself losing control of both myself and my bike on this forum for some sort of congratulatory points...

MS I did not know you were going after me - I was referring to everyone beating up the OP; wonder if he'll return.

Finally back to tire and brakes 101 if you can lock them whatever the combination or design, drum or disc with whatever tire it gets no better end of story don't argue, just eat it this is simply physics and I spent my 1st career in just that field. Mine will lock up, they happen to be the drum design, which while I would prefer not race with just because they are not as repeatable as discs - that is THE ONLY ADVANTAGE of such a design in a practical sense. Beyond that depending on how they are mounted, and how much use they will see, cooling is often more easily handled with an exposed disc, but the facts still remain, a self actuating drum with less surface area puts out more torque (I.E. "stopping power" than a disc of even similar size - as it has no mechanical advantage.) which becomes the irony of the whole brake story - free braking power from self actuating drum design, but that same "free" braking is not predictable on each apply..

Duane said it best with regard to tires, "Let us know when you find the have your cake and eat it too tire." Ask the F1 guys about this they will have lots of stories for you...

[Motorhead]

I don't want to be the bad guy here, I updated my earlier post as dwire was bothered about it and didn't address what I was talking about........

[dwire]

I'm not upset with anyone. Like I said Motorhead and I can see your point - sounds absurd BECAUSE IT WAS. I can tell you with 110% confidence not only did I think I was going to crash, I thought I already had crashed and was wondering how I would clear the large dock plate bumper on the semi in front of me - as I was well aware the same pile up could be heard behind me (at least all the screeching tires and strange loud noises...) I know I could never repeat that scenario without either a wreck, or just stopping properly. Keep in mind, the main reason(s) for this was no one was prepared or aware of what was happening ahead and I had no idea of the condition, nor capabilities of my bike or myself and both were sorely lacking. I'd guessed afterward that since the forks immediately bottomed out, which is what through me forward, I'd not have such a ride on a bike properly prepared, but naturally, this had been prepared by a self proclaimed "expert vintage BMW mechanic." - I'm not impressed with his work - AND this was not my bike, but actually my ex-wife's M/C who's ex-BF was the mechanic... hmmmm Anyway.

No one has been a bad guy to me, I don't get sore over things aimed at me or things in general so no worries in that way, but my God, watching this thread progress, while I do not want to go back and see how many people were giving tire recommendations (there were some indeed) and how many were arguing about stuff and to a person that was fresh on the board that second post even tried to explain perhaps his description was a feux pas, but that he was simply trying to avoid what ended up happening by being more descriptive, well it irritated me "FOR HIM" I guess... No big thing.

[Major Softie]

"Finally back to tire and brakes 101 if you can lock them whatever the combination or design, drum or disc with whatever tire it gets no better end of story don't argue, just eat it this is simply physics and I spent my 1st career in just that field."

Frightening. I choose not to "eat it."

I repeat: if your brakes are powerful enough to lock up the wheel, then you can stop faster with a grippier tire. If you cannot understand that, your career in physics must have been very . . . "unique." Brakes do not stop motorcycles, brakes stop wheels from turning; tires stop motorcycles. If your brakes and tires are good enough that they can create "stoppies" at any speed, THEN it "gets no better" (within the design of that motorcycle) as it is not possible for that motorcycle to apply any more braking without flipping end-for-end.

P.S.: "MS I did not know you were going after me" Well, neither did I, at the time. Now that I've been told to "eat it," I suppose I might be viewing it differently.

[dwire]

Yeah that is not worded right MS nor is it right at all (boo-boo) - but was not at all how this started prior either... I meant to refer to any given tire/brake combo the most output it can achieve is at lock-up (actually most prefer the near lock up with very good tires in which the system's maximum is just where a driver/rider would want it - tire(s) going wee bit slower than pavement as a flat spotted tire on a bike or car is no good) - matters not what stopping device is used as brakes were entered into the conversation above... Proof to your pudding is ABS only eclipsed a locked tire in straight-line (only straight-line mind you) stopping distance about a decade or so ago and it (ABS) has been around since the 70's. All of which is what you should be and appear to be saying - so yes we agree, why we ever arrived here is unclear other than perhaps folks questioning how I wrecked my bike "sorta'"

I do not normally make THAT stupid of an error in my writings unless I am not paying attention (wasn't really) and/or in this case trying to pay attention to 20 frickin' people all of which are off topic throwing flames about. I edited that post for everyone's pleasure far too many times for it not to end up wrong... I'm as well in the middle of something far more important and complex than this discussion at this time. Trying to predict an overhead satellite pass for a week in advance apparently did not leave enough brain cells for me to be commenting here as well...

[dwire]

BTW, re-reading my own comment above, I see that if you actually read it, its just vague. It DOES NOT say all tires are the same it says:

if you can lock them whatever the combination or design, drum or disc with whatever tire it gets no better

I suppose too vague, but not wholly incorrect, as I make no mention of a comparison of tire compounds. and had not anywhere in the thread I am aware of, other than making mention adding weight over top of a tire WILL increase the tries drag coefficient. Meaning me laying over the front of my bike "wrecking." and as well mentioning an older BMW dealer that seemed to think even period tires were rather adequate for the bike design... (I knew I could not have written something that way off...) At any rate, take it for what it is worth, its a tire thread, anything goes...

[chasbmw]

there have been major changes in bikes since I started riding in the late 60s, Tyres would be one of them plus clothing and general reliability.

Good braking is not only the ability to take the front tyre to the point of locking, but the possibility of getting there reliably whatever the differences in road conditions is the only safe way to go.

Standard BMW brakes in the 70s could lock the fairly crappy tyres available then, but lacked the feel required to make best use of the brakes in poor conditions

[dwire]

All good observations Charles. I've never had the "real" vintage brand new tires to know if they were adequate, somehow I suspect they were in many senses at some level - and I ONLY can base that on conversations with a handful of riders Like yourself and an old dealer I trust. And surely tires have improved dramatically over the years in many ways, but (again I have no idea one way or another) how much of said improvements were made on tires that would be appropriate for our bikes (those "V" shape tires, WoW - and sticky! But, not appropriate for our bikes; nor are many of the large rounded huge contact patch rears as many I've seen in the stores would never clear the rear swing-arm/frame.)

An interesting counterpoint that was discussed recently was about the first generation disc brakes sucking on these bikes. There is sooo much that goes into a brake itself before moving forward, let alone what and who gets involved at what stage fitting the tires for market.

Good braking is not only the ability to take the front tyre to the point of locking, but the possibility of getting there reliably whatever the differences in road conditions is the only safe way to go.

I would agree, and this does fall into the have your cake and eat it too category a bit doesn't it? F1 and Indy racers have rain tires for their road course just as do the M/C'ers. So yes, a happy medium is what the everyday rider would be looking for considering changing a pair of tires does not take a matter of seconds or minutes like at the race track. (this would also out-cost my bike rather quickly)

Standard BMW brakes in the 70s could lock the fairly crappy tyres available then, but lacked the feel required to make best use of the brakes in poor conditions

That I would not be able to say as I have not at all the history and heritage you and a giant majority of the BMW enthusiast have here on the board. I can say that about 25 years ago, the lower mileage (soft compound) tires fitted to my cohort's V65 1200 or so 4cylinder big-ass bike would even with rudimentary ABS on the front, lock the rear tire up. I'd guess tires have likely gone a long way since the '80's and 90's too.

Charles I don't disagree with your post in the least and appreciate its candor, position and demeanor. There are a "few" things never mentioned by anyone. The law of diminishing returns, in that I know my bike can only go "so fast" (God knows really as I have never timed it properly in a speed trap and @ WOT) but you know I have never ridden one of these at much over the 80MPH range, so at one point or another, would not there be a breaking point where softer compounds simply make you stop faster at the tire dealer? I know we all want to be safe and in control, unlike my depiction of the crash that did not happen, but I do think some consideration might be that this section of the forum, 1970 airheads, most people are going to be unable to get speeds of 180MPH + out of their bikes where at one point or another a tire compound toward the super sticky end that wear more rapidly are simply a drain on one's wallet.

And I am by no means a tire expert; they are complex machines that if they be slicks simply use their stickiness to hold them to the ground (super sticky treaded tires get much of this advantage as well) - you usually see this on any machine that has high down force or can be heavily loaded by other means, whereas any tire with treads in it is actually a vacuum device; the treads are there to create a vacuum at the contact patch; something I always found utterly amazing... Now tires made for rain - or tires made or all season, well really that was just a result of long term testing of essentially the same old stuff (mix & match) and getting better and better results - of course this was many moons before you could do all of this on a computer and have good enough data to head in one direction or another in a couple of days or less...

Thanks for your post Charles, I hope you do not think I am disagreeing with you, or trying to get the last word; it just had occurred to me late last night something no one had discussed is that we are talking about a 1970's airhead so, that confines a great number of factors all at one time - namely if you want to stop, the maximum speed you may want to stop from is far lower than the boys racing out on the road courses and such; there are a lot of things that can be said when everyone is riding a BIKE that is 1970's vintage, as you said, I think "'70's crap tires" well these are 70's crap machines too (they don't go 180MPH) or corner as the new 2013 cafe bike does as they are not 2013 cafe racers IYKWIM. --> But I'd have it no other way; I really do like my bike; one day, one day I'll bring the white gas with my stoves over to Kens and you all can dowse me down with it there.

And I also like the folks here too. Though I am still questioning if our Hawaiian friend was entirely sent off over this as everyone has soething to learn or gain from another - sometimes, even things of relevance and importance are learned from mistakes even. (not implying that here of myself, but you all know what I mean.) I have posted a number of mistakes I have made and when I finally deduced for sure what I did wrong I wrote all about it. Why be bashful? If it helps someone else not "go there" all the better.