Think they were Beemers...?

[Major Softie]

Your choice to buy a BMW WILL NOT somehow magically transform you into a more skillful rider.
Nor does owning a BMW mystically bestow upon you any extraordinary capacities
for social acceptance, safety, or survival on the road.

Absolutely true.

HOWEVER

You have falsely identified the issue - it is not the egg, it's the chicken. Different machines don't make you into a different person, but different machines DO attract different personalities. So, it is perfectly reasonable to assume that very different motorcycles attract very different personalities.

The fact is that different kinds of bikes DO behave differently on the road. When was the last time you had a bunch of ignorant squids passing you on the right and over the double yellow line - on Harleys? Does this mean that buying a Harley makes you slower or less likely to make illegal passes? Of course not. It means squids don't buy Harleys. Squids buy sport bikes, and Harley doesn't make one.

There are people who like riding in a big pack of similar cruiser styled bikes at 5 - 10 mph under the speed limit on 2-lane mountain roads, all or most running extremely loud exhausts. I know such people exist, because I see them out every weekend. They not only exist, they are not at all uncommon. They are, in fact, currently one of the largest segments of motorcycle ownership. We also know this: these people don't buy BMW's. They don't just buy Harleys, they also buy Victory and Star and Boulevard. The people who like to ride that way buy cruisers, and BMW doesn't make one (and, when they did, the cruiser crowd still didn't buy BMW's).

No, what motorcycle you choose does not make you into a different person, but there's no question that different kinds of people choose different kinds of motorcycles. If Harleys and BMW's appealed to the same types of riders, then the dealers for both would be selling the same type of clothing. They don't, because they each sell what appeals to their own clientele.

Note: I fully realize that there are individual exceptions to all of these definitive statements, but, they are accurate to a very high percentage, if not 100%.

[Deleted User 61]

Thank you, Kurt.
It's good to have you back.

[gspd]

[quote="Major Softie"][quote=

When was the last time you had a bunch of ignorant squids passing you on the right and over the double yellow line - on Harleys?

If someone is hogging the left part of the lane and oblivious to my presence behind him because he does not use his mirrors, I will pass him wide on the right if I have to.
I rarely do this. I only do it if the guy is obviously a roadtard and the only danger I see in it is possibly startling him awake or off the road. I always pass fast enough and give a wide enough berth that he won't smash in to me should he be startled.

As far as illegal passing on double yellow lines, I do it regularly, but only when it's safe to do so.
It's never safe if there is a cop around.
On the other hand, I will hold back on a pass when the dotted lines are urging me to, if I deem the conditions unsafe.

I believe every rider out there has passed (at least once?) on a double yellow when it was 100% safe to do so.
Those lane markings are designed for average vehicle acceleration/deceleration capabilities and size, not well ridden motorcycles.

I've only been stopped once in my life for double-line passing.
The cop did not actually see me do it, but from far behind he saw me between him and a car further ahead and after a few sharp bends I was ahead of the car. The cop then also made a safe illegal pass to catch up to me and pulled me over.
By the time I saw him closing in on me, I slowed down to the speed limit. I told him the (now long gone) dawdler squeezed to the right of the lane and hand signaled me to pass, so I did. No ticket.

BTW - In Quebec it is legal to pass 'slow-moving' vehicles or swarms of "Tour de France" type bicyclists on a double-yellow when it's safe.

[Major Softie]

1. I said squids. Are you a squid?

2. If you pass cars on their right on a 2 lane road (in a country where we drive on the right), regardless of the circumstances, then you just lost all credibility in a discussion of reasonable behavior on the road. Passing over the double yellow is illegal (in my country). So's speeding, and we all do that. Passing a car on the right on a two lane road is asking to die.

[gspd]

1. I said squids. Are you a squid?
Passing a car on the right on a two lane road is asking to die.

hmmm...please define squid.

I meant passing another bike on the right, if he's way over near the centerline and oblivious to my presence, or even worse, if he's aware of my presence and consciously blocking me.
A lot of motorists (cars AND bikes) feel it is their god given duty to impede anyone from passing them if they are going the speed limit.
I'm the opposite, if you're going faster than me, I will do everything possible to help you pass me safely and continue on your way.
BTW - I rarely, if ever pass cars on the right.

[Deleted User 61]

hmmm...please define squid.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=squid

A young motorcyclist who overestimates his abilities, boasts of his riding skills when in reality he has none. Squid bikes are usually decorated with chrome and various anodized bits. Rear tyres are too wide for their own good, swingarm extended. Really slow in the corners, and sudden bursts of acceleration when a straight appears. Squids wear no protection, deeming themselves invincible. This fact compounds intself with the fact that they engage in 'extreem riding'--performing wheelies and stoppies in public areas. Squids wreck alot. Derived from 'squirly kid'.

We were suddenly passed by a chromed out R1 and then when we rounded the bend, we saw the squid wrapped around a tree, he'd probably be alive if he was wearing a helmet.

[Major Softie]

Like he said

[vanzen]

... You have falsely identified the issue - it is not the egg, it's the chicken. Different machines don't make you into a different person, but different machines DO attract different personalities. So, it is perfectly reasonable to assume that very different motorcycles attract very different personalities.
...
No, what motorcycle you choose does not make you into a different person, but there's no question that different kinds of people choose different kinds of motorcycles. If Harleys and BMW's appealed to the same types of riders, then the dealers for both would be selling the same type of clothing. They don't, because they each sell what appeals to their own clientele.
...

Of course motorcycle companies are more than happy to sell "image"
(whether that image be "Marlin Brando" or "Kevin & Julia Sanders"),
and in spite of the fact that certain personalities will gravitate to certain brands as a result –
The fact remains that if one will objectively observe the situation
one is sure to find that exceptions to the "rule" exist in great enough numbers – on both sides of the fence -
to prove that the only motives that exist as a reason for this kind of diatribe –
are egocentricity and self aggrandizement.

Reduced to essential purpose and intent,"Think they were Beemers"
is simply an excuse to pound our puffed-up chests and proclaim: 'we're just so much better than they are'.
Nothing more and nothing less.
Why the need to imagine arbitrary boundaries that will only serve to divide ?
What positive or constructive end could possibly be the result ?
Are we obliged to assume this role as missionary with the divine task of reformation & redemption ?

The softening of bigotry with the qualifiers of "most", "many" or "less than 100%" is quite clever
(some of my best friends are Negroes)
but the incorrect assumption and fallacy of a qualitative distinction of "them" and "us" remains firmly in place.
Sorry, Major, that is the chicken AND the egg –
The need to distinguish, stereotype, and belittle those of difference is still bull-sh!t.

"Brand", "Image", and / or "appeal" still do not define skills.

... And if I had 10¢ for every incompetent, inconsiderate, or just plain stupid rider
witnessed at BMW rallies over the years –
I could afford several Harleys – even as I can't imagine wanting one !

[gspd]

I agree with Vanz - the machine does not reflect the riders' skill level in any way...
Q - Which of these guys do you think is a better/safer rider?
A - Trick question - You can't tell until you actually watch them ride for a while.
The machine they're on, or their attire, has NOTHING to do with it.

ATGATT only means they will likely suffer less severe injuries if they crash.
It does not mean they are better/safer riders.
I've seen too many people ride legally but very unsafely,
and I've seen many who constantly pull illegal moves do so with the utmost safety.

I can tell after observing someone for only a minute if they are a 'pro' street rider.
They are few and far between.
Someone following me would either think I'm a pro, or an accident waiting to happen,
depending on their perception.
As far as the 'guvmint' is concerned, my license would be suspended immediately if they actually watched me ride 'normally' for a few miles, even if I never came close to having or causing an accident. Thank god I'm invisible.

[vanzen]

My road (US Hwy 12 – the Detroit to Chicago Road) sees a lot of motorcycle traffic,
an eclectic mix of bikes and riders, predominately HD "cruiser" types,
but also a small but growing % that will be identified as "squids".

"Squids" – now there's another term that is bandied about with pejoritive intent.
Based upon my observations, I will say that a good number of these "kids" grew up on motocross bikes,
are excellent riders, and possess motorcycle riding skills that would put 93.7% of all BMW riders to shame !
(myself included)
Many, if not a majority, of these riders who are so handily written off as "squids" –
are responsible and very capable riders.

This statement does not intend to diminish the very real danger of stunting in traffic
or justify the patent disregard of consequences that accompanies the choice to do so,
as I find this position indefensible,
but rather to commend the level of control and mastery of a machine exhibited by many of these riders.

Obviously, there is more to riding on the street than just the "mastery of the machine", as GSPD intimated.
The need to make "good" choices in order to manage risk is paramount.
I am reminded of a renowned MSF Instructor in New York
for whom I engraved a license plate frame with these words:
"Speed Safely"