tubeless

[moonbeamerll]

Where's Funholiday when we need him to settle the matter once and for all?

[Major Softie]

Where's Funholiday when we need him to settle the matter once and for all?

You are a very bad man.

[ME 109]

If my regular riding expectations involved high speeds, marginal road surfaces, and / or off road conditions ...
and I was riding an airhead w/ flakes (as unlikely as that scenario should be) ...
the flakes would be fitted tubes.

A tube it shall be then, inside a rear Metz enduro 2
I would like to add, after years of field tests, that my flakes although not perfectly true have withstood thousands of kilometres of off road use with no visible signs of failure.
Avoiding most of the big hits no doubt plays a big part.

[vanzen]

A tube it shall be then, inside a rear Metz enduro 2
I would like to add, after years of field tests, that my flakes although not perfectly true have withstood thousands of kilometres of off road use with no visible signs of failure.
Avoiding most of the big hits no doubt plays a big part.

Yes, speed moderation and, hopefully, avoiding "hits" with flakes will be a necessary compromise.
Spokes and tubes on an old airhead will be the best case scenario for marginal road and off road usage.
Spoked wheels weigh considerably less than flakes and are much more compliant.
The lateral rigidity of a cast wheel will be a moot benefit when off pavement.

Circumstances always help to quantify that "unknown risk"

[Motorhead]

Where's Funholiday when we need him to settle the matter once and for all?

Hope He's lost somewhere

too many agruments with no proof, when the card came down

[vanzen]

Where's Funholiday when we need him to settle the matter once and for all?

Hope He's lost somewhere :lol:

too many agruments with no proof, when the card came down

A very smart guy when it came to airhead mechanics
even as communication skills lagged.
When push came to shove – The man (often) knew some sh!t ...

[Ken in Oklahoma]

So wirewrkr, have you read vanzen's ideas on the subject? He does put together a well thought out counter argument. If you're familiar with his argument, where do you think he went wrong?

The facts are the facts.
BMW Never meant for that wheel to be run without tubes.
That is fact.
If someone decides to change their own perception of a given reality, they are welcome to do so. BUT
When you give similar advice to a generally broad audience such as on the internet, you are taking on a serious responsibility. You don't know or cannot presume to know the mechanical aptitude of the people who may decide they want to run tubeless tires on their tube type rims. There are lots of folks out there that believe they are very adept at the use of tools and the adaptation of mechanical systems, but in reality have no business picking up a wrench and a screwdriver at the same time. I have witnessed this many many times in my 35 years working in various mechanical businesses.
Giving advice on the internet is a tricky business. I try to refrain from giving advice that could damage their machine or worse, get someone seriously injured.

Wirewrkr, you quoted my post so I assume you are addressing it. My post was pretty simple. I asked if you were familiar with vanzen's view about the merits of running a tire tubless on snowflake wheels. And if so where do you think he went wrong. You didn't seem to address my query, so I'm wondering why you addressed your post to me.

But you did. Perhaps, from what you wrote you want me to infer what you found wanting in vanzen's arguments. But that doesn't sound quite right because you seemed focused on reminding us of our responsibility when we give advice on the internet. But I don't recall vanzen giving advice. I do recall him stating his opinion on the question of running tires tubeless on snowflake rims, while at the same time clearly saying that he was giving his opinion on a controversial subject and why he held that opinion.

Then your post got a bit more pointed and you apparently feel that vanzen went wrong because he was making presumptions about the mechanical aptitude of the people who might take his "advice" to heart when they had no business "picking up a wrench and a screwdriver at the same time". If I have the intent of your words right, I'm bothered. Apparently you feel that vanzen should withhold his opinions on the subject because there are idiots (my word, not yours) who might hurt themselves because of their interpretation of his opinion coupled with their mechanical ineptitude.

Now I'm getting to the part that bothers me the most. What about the people out there who are not idiots (again my word)? What about the thoughtful people out there who might be capable of deciding for themselves whether they ought to attempt some non BMW approved modification to their motorcycle? Should we all construct our posts here on boxerworks with the prime consideration being whether an idiot might be able to hurt himself trying to do some procedure? Surely that's not how you intend for technical discussions to unfold here on boxerworks!

Speaking for myself, I have a hard time with dumbing down my posts for the lowest common denominator. And I would rankle at the idea of somebody giving me less than their best and most heartfelt opinions because I just might hurt myself.

And I have a hard time here imagining that anybody here would feel differently. With no intent to get personal, I reckon that you too would rankle a bit.


Ken

[ME 109]

Where's Funholiday when we need him to settle the matter once and for all?

Hope He's lost somewhere

too many agruments with no proof, when the card came down

A very smart guy when it came to airhead mechanics
even as communication skills lagged.
When push came to shove – The man (often) knew some sh!t ...

He certainly did know know his shit. And often behaved like it.
His knowledge is missed, but not his manner.
Having to have the last say........often brings people undone.
BTW, fun was in the tubeless camp, PERIOD.

[twist]

Spoked wheels weigh considerably less than flakes and are much more compliant.

I was under the impression that a tubeless cast rim weighed very nearly the same as a tubed spoke wheel.

[Ken in Oklahoma]

Spoked wheels weigh considerably less than flakes and are much more compliant.

I was under the impression that a tubeless cast rim weighed very nearly the same as a tubed spoke wheel.

FYI It was I who weighed a stock spoked wheel, a snowflake wheel, and a Lester wheel a few years ago. Unfortunately I can't find the weights on my computer, but I did post them here on boxerworks. Unfortunately those old posts are no longer available after a major crash. Vanzen may have recorded the weights.

I may be in error here, but from memory the spoked wheel was lighter by about a pound when compared to the snowflake wheel and a Lester wheel (which were very close to each other in weight).

All three wheels were, of course, not intended to be run tubeless. But as has been discussed the snowflake and Lester can be run tubeless. I don't know what tubes weigh, but they will surely weigh over a pound. If you add that pound to a spoked wheel then the weight would be roughly equivalent to an untubed snowflake or lester wheel.


Ken