I'm assembling a /5 at the moment and hit a head scratcher.
The final drive has been apart and re-sealed / new gaskets. Turns as expected. Same splines (they were in good shape), same shims.
The wheel hubs have a 69 stamp on them.
I'm getting a big gap (maybe 1/8 inch) between the hub and the final drive housing. I'm not sure if it is due to the wheel bearing spacer, or the splines, or the new seal by the splines not allowing the hub to fit all the way into the final drive..?
I've tried the wheel on other '76 era spare final drives and it fits OK.
I've tried spare hubs (with no bearing spacer) and it fits *maybe* slightly better than the photo.
I know there were different spline lengths on either the wheels or the hubs back then, until they went with longer splines in the mid 70's.
Has anybody seen this issue before?
Ideas?
TIA
-JJ
Rear hub and Final drive gap
Rear hub and Final drive gap
www.beemersandbits.com
'77 R100S - http://www.joshuawithers.com/r100s
'73 /5 Toaster Cafe bike http://www.joshwithers.com/slash5
'67 Bridgestone 175 Hurricane Scrambler
'66 R60/2
'72 BMW 2002
Instagram - jj_withers
'77 R100S - http://www.joshuawithers.com/r100s
'73 /5 Toaster Cafe bike http://www.joshwithers.com/slash5
'67 Bridgestone 175 Hurricane Scrambler
'66 R60/2
'72 BMW 2002
Instagram - jj_withers
- Zombie Master
- Posts: 8821
- Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2010 12:21 am
- Location: Vancouver Island BC Canada
Re: Rear hub and Final drive gap
I think what you have there, is a longer tophat spacer used to allow a wider tire to clear the swing arm. I regetably did this mod to My R100. You may find that the brake shoe not fully contacting the hub. You may also find that the splines have less engagement contact. It hasn't been a problem though.
Any and all disclaimers may apply
-
- Posts: 1213
- Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:11 pm
- Location: Scotland UK, 20 miles from civilisation up a dead end road!
- Contact:
Re: Rear hub and Final drive gap
First question... is this a new issue or was it present before the bike was disassembled?
Second question... If it's new, what has changed and what work has been done that might affect the clearance?
There are several reasons why the clearance might have changed.
The step on the axle is pulled up against the outer top hat spacer by the nut on the drive side.
The top hat spacer pulls up against the inner race of the outer bearing which, in turn pulls up against the 'wedding band' spacer and the spacer tube before pulling up against the inner race of the inside bearing... It is these four components that set the bearing free play.
The inner race of the inner bearing pulls up against the inner top hat spacer and this in turn pulls up against the central core of the drive which goes through the drive casting to bear against the washer under the axle nut.
All of these components are solid steel and, to all intents and purposes, they can be considered as absolutely rigid and of set dimensions. Once torqued up, the bearings will be correctly set and there will be no excessive bearing free play. Any interference that stops the bearing pack from torquing up correctly will result in loose bearings and excessive free play.
What I think you should do first is make sure the wheel is properly torqued and check for free play in the bearings. If there is none, then the bearing pask is correctly set up and the issue is with either the position of the wheel on the bearing pack, the top hat spacers or the central core of the drive being displaced (I have to say I think the last to be unlikely as torquing the wheel would probably press it back into place but it's a possibility).
Rob
Second question... If it's new, what has changed and what work has been done that might affect the clearance?
There are several reasons why the clearance might have changed.
- If the complete bearing pack was removed from the wheel, there is a chance that it hasn't been assembled correctly or seated back properly.
- Was the central core tube of the final drive removed... if so, was it seated back into place correctly?
- As ZM comments, there are a number of different sized 'top hat' spacers that fit between the inner bearing race and the central core of the final drive. On some models (don't know about yours) the spacer on the inner side and that on the outer side are different widths.
- Have you torqued up the axle? is there any play in the bearings? The internal grease seal (assuming, of course, that it's fitted fully into it's recess) is most unlikely to stop the wheel from pulling up fully. If it did, you would get a lot of play in the bearing as the pack would not be pulled up tight.
The step on the axle is pulled up against the outer top hat spacer by the nut on the drive side.
The top hat spacer pulls up against the inner race of the outer bearing which, in turn pulls up against the 'wedding band' spacer and the spacer tube before pulling up against the inner race of the inside bearing... It is these four components that set the bearing free play.
The inner race of the inner bearing pulls up against the inner top hat spacer and this in turn pulls up against the central core of the drive which goes through the drive casting to bear against the washer under the axle nut.
All of these components are solid steel and, to all intents and purposes, they can be considered as absolutely rigid and of set dimensions. Once torqued up, the bearings will be correctly set and there will be no excessive bearing free play. Any interference that stops the bearing pack from torquing up correctly will result in loose bearings and excessive free play.
What I think you should do first is make sure the wheel is properly torqued and check for free play in the bearings. If there is none, then the bearing pask is correctly set up and the issue is with either the position of the wheel on the bearing pack, the top hat spacers or the central core of the drive being displaced (I have to say I think the last to be unlikely as torquing the wheel would probably press it back into place but it's a possibility).
Rob
Re: Rear hub and Final drive gap
Long story but the bike was a basket case and I'm using a different /5 hub that what came with the rolling chassis.
The bad part is that it is an early /5 hub where you have to put the top hat spacer in with the stack, and it takes the aluminum seal with felt behind it. (Vs the later hubs where you could remove the top hat and seal.- I'll send photos if you are unaware of the hub differences.)
I torqued the axle up to 25 foot lbs and the gap went to 'normal'. So that's a good thing.
However, the wheel was somewhat hard to turn at that point.
When I loosened the axle torque, the wheel spun as expected.
So I probably have an issue with the Final Drive.
My conclusions are based on this:
#1 - The final drive was re-sealed. Same shims and bearings were used as original. I have a suspicious feeling that the seal around the splines has too much if an ID and the driving dog makes contact with that seal, creating the stiffness.
The same issue occurs with two different wheels/hubs.
#2 - The bearings were replaced in the hub. Perhaps the stack is too tight and when torqued. However, I put an axle in with no Final Drive, torque it (using a large spacer), it spins with minimal resistance (probably due to grease).
Luckily the brake shoes are not in yet as I'm test fitting before other parts go to powder coat. I think I'll need to remove that inside Final Drive cover and inspect/replace the seal around the splines. The seal I used was from Motobins and was probably not OEM.
Unless you guys have any other ideas??
The bad part is that it is an early /5 hub where you have to put the top hat spacer in with the stack, and it takes the aluminum seal with felt behind it. (Vs the later hubs where you could remove the top hat and seal.- I'll send photos if you are unaware of the hub differences.)
I torqued the axle up to 25 foot lbs and the gap went to 'normal'. So that's a good thing.
However, the wheel was somewhat hard to turn at that point.
When I loosened the axle torque, the wheel spun as expected.
So I probably have an issue with the Final Drive.
My conclusions are based on this:
#1 - The final drive was re-sealed. Same shims and bearings were used as original. I have a suspicious feeling that the seal around the splines has too much if an ID and the driving dog makes contact with that seal, creating the stiffness.
The same issue occurs with two different wheels/hubs.
#2 - The bearings were replaced in the hub. Perhaps the stack is too tight and when torqued. However, I put an axle in with no Final Drive, torque it (using a large spacer), it spins with minimal resistance (probably due to grease).
Luckily the brake shoes are not in yet as I'm test fitting before other parts go to powder coat. I think I'll need to remove that inside Final Drive cover and inspect/replace the seal around the splines. The seal I used was from Motobins and was probably not OEM.
Unless you guys have any other ideas??
www.beemersandbits.com
'77 R100S - http://www.joshuawithers.com/r100s
'73 /5 Toaster Cafe bike http://www.joshwithers.com/slash5
'67 Bridgestone 175 Hurricane Scrambler
'66 R60/2
'72 BMW 2002
Instagram - jj_withers
'77 R100S - http://www.joshuawithers.com/r100s
'73 /5 Toaster Cafe bike http://www.joshwithers.com/slash5
'67 Bridgestone 175 Hurricane Scrambler
'66 R60/2
'72 BMW 2002
Instagram - jj_withers
Re: Rear hub and Final drive gap
I figured it out. The seal around the splines was too far forward, towards the end of the splines.
It was almost covering the entire drain hole. I took the cover off, pushed the seal back towards the bearing more, put the drive back together, mounted the wheel, torqued the axle and everything spins as expected, and the hub fits in the FD as expected. My only worry is that moving the seal around may have compromised it somehow. At least it is one of the easier ones to replace should it need it.
It was almost covering the entire drain hole. I took the cover off, pushed the seal back towards the bearing more, put the drive back together, mounted the wheel, torqued the axle and everything spins as expected, and the hub fits in the FD as expected. My only worry is that moving the seal around may have compromised it somehow. At least it is one of the easier ones to replace should it need it.
www.beemersandbits.com
'77 R100S - http://www.joshuawithers.com/r100s
'73 /5 Toaster Cafe bike http://www.joshwithers.com/slash5
'67 Bridgestone 175 Hurricane Scrambler
'66 R60/2
'72 BMW 2002
Instagram - jj_withers
'77 R100S - http://www.joshuawithers.com/r100s
'73 /5 Toaster Cafe bike http://www.joshwithers.com/slash5
'67 Bridgestone 175 Hurricane Scrambler
'66 R60/2
'72 BMW 2002
Instagram - jj_withers
-
- Posts: 64
- Joined: Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:11 am
Re: Rear hub and Final drive gap
I have had problems with new seals for both the final drive and rear main crankshaft.
Genuine BMW parts fixed the problem, seems they are just a fraction smaller than some of the pattern items.
Genuine BMW parts fixed the problem, seems they are just a fraction smaller than some of the pattern items.
-
- Posts: 64
- Joined: Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:11 am
Re: Rear hub and Final drive gap
I have had problems with new seals for both the final drive and rear main crankshaft.
Genuine BMW parts fixed the problem, seems they are just a fraction smaller than some of the pattern items.
Genuine BMW parts fixed the problem, seems they are just a fraction smaller than some of the pattern items.