boxer-don't-works ?

[Deleted User 62]

Mine is running like a charm...

I see you have a pan under it, collecting....charm. Me too.

oh wow.... I just realized, I lead a "charmed" life. Mostly on the toe of my left boot...

[dwire]

dwire, I was indeed talking about #2 and I wasn't saying it's an improvement, it's stock! In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with the stock /5 solution though. It has the headstock bearing pre-load locked independent of the upper triple before everything else is assembled. The dome nut (#1) in that case is only decoration (apart from holding the steering dampener). I can remove it without loosing the headstock bearing preload adjustment on the/5. Try that on the latter solution.
In fact the latter solution - slotted round nut - appears inferior as it is locked by tightenting the dome nut with the steel plate (you can't call that a triple tree, can you!) acting as a big 4mm washer.
Replacing the more elegant /5 solution (round nut with pin hole and lock ring) with the latter slotted round nut: looks like cost saving to me and in my opinion, is inferior to the earlier /5 solution.

Thank you for the reply, clarification and explanation. I aggravate enough people for different reasons; one because I have been "collecting" answers and opinions for the day when I am at that stage in the process so I either A) Already know what to do or B) at least know I can search my own threads to find the answers for I've already inquired about them once. (Hopefully everyone will see this pay off if I am ever able to get my rebuild back up off the ground here.)

I completely understand what you are saying in your first paragraph. Not only is it a no-brainer that a thick top triple tree clamp hypothetically should help stiffen the entire assembly once the geometry is set and everything is properly torqued. Where you sort of lost me (and I apologize for my awkwardness) is your second paragraph. Wait, I think I see, you are reinforcing you do not care for the later model solution that being the slotted and threaded ring encapsulated Simply by the top nut itself? There are others that tout the merits of the later model apparatus AND I am sure from their own experiences with/for good reason, but I can say from a neophyte's perspective, I can agree being able to tear essentially everything down on the front end and know I had not messed with the preload of the head bearings (due to the old two clamp design) was one less thing for me to worry about "getting right." I don't imagine the steering head bearings are all that hard to set themselves, but if everything essentially totally comes apart with the newer style head bearing assembly, that adds one more layer of work and potential for error to a BMW M/C shade tree mechanic like me to deal with.

Thank you much for your tolerance and sorry about stuffing a pic in there, but I could think of no other way of conveying my question. I don't imagine head bearing preload is much more difficult to get correct than any other common sense sort of inner/outer cone and race bearings, but having the entire front end sort of drop on the floor (metaphorically speaking) surely would be more daunting than what I dealt with when I took a look at my warn out and tired forks the last time from an evaluation standpoint...

[StephenB]

(I always wanted to add pictures to the excellent articles from Duane and others that explain setting bearing pre-load)

Once you've realized that there is play (aka backlash) between the ring/slotted nut and the shaft that holds the bearing (or between any bolt and nut for that matter), you're one step ahead.

(courtesy of http://liutaiomottola.com/Tools/Backlash.htm)

...

The problem with backlash is that it can impose positioning error in a positioning system. For example, if the screw in figure 2 has five teeth per inch (5 TPI) and you turn the screw five times so that the nut moves to the right, the nut will move exactly one inch to the right. But starting from the position of the nut in figure 2, if you turn the screw five times so that the nut moves to the left, the nut will move one inch minus the amount of backlash. This is because the initial turning of the screw takes up the backlash but does not move the nut. The nut only moves after the screw has turned enough so its threads are bearing on the right side surfaces of the nut threads. This can be a problem in positioning systems that depend on a given number of rotations of the screw resulting in a given positioning of the nut.

Back to our "problem": for setting the headstock bearing preload we require a certain distance (position) between two points (bearing races) to position both bearings in their cup, with a certain pressure causing the bearings to be preloaded.
Onve you visualize "backlash", setting headstock bearing becomes easier: you have to set them with quite some play (to overcome backlash AND set pre-load), which is taken out by tightening the nut (see the above visuals). If you set them pre-loaded (no play plus a smidgen) and then tighten, your pre-load is way too tight, you bearing life greatly reduced. AMHIK. Try it yourself through the various stages of play ... you'll see.

It is the same with swingarm bearings: pivot pins and locknuts.

[StephenB]

you are reinforcing you do not care for the later model solution that being the slotted and threaded ring encapsulated.

Just to be clear: there isn't much difference between those nuts. Both are threaded (they are interchangeable, duh!), one is slotted, one has pin holes (different tool, same function). The /5 nut however is split to allow the lock ring to lock it, prevent it from turning. That is the key feature of the /5 solution.

[dwire]

I understand your reply and am well versed in both backlash as well as fastener elongation and hole deformation, yet am still at a loss as to what you were really talking about when I initially replied. Thus far, I only know with all certitude you were speaking about the head bearings' preload and how to accomplish proper preload with a locking device that might as well change the preload. That I understand. What I was and am fuzzy on is what you really were saying in the initial post I responded to.

At any rate, nice illustrations; I am sure many will find them helpful in visualizing backlash, preload and even fastener elongation. I also must have misread something important on Duane's page which I was reading as the subject came up; I thought he was endorsing the later design - not the early model /5 solution. No time now; perhaps I can revisit both your posts (from the picture onward) as well as Duane's page on the subject. Maybe there's an "Ah-ha!" moment I missed...

Thanks

[StephenB]

What I was and am fuzzy on is what you really were saying in the initial post I responded to.

I responded as follows:

At the same time, I thought that a better top triple tree would not do any harm (notice the original headstock bearing lock thanks to one of our own?):

Here, I only made reference to the original /5 headstock bearing lock design that I installed (and for which I got the parts from a friendly Boxerworker).

The thread degraded beautifully from there. Well you brought in fastener elongation and hole deformation, whereas I was simply talking backlash. Great job there mate for further degrading the thread

It's not you, it's me. Ask anybody!

[dwire]

No worries, surely I'll look back on this and learn something from the exchange one day. I find it is often easier with phpBB to simply search for threads I've posted to, than to try and find a needle in a haystack. I was trying to look up a wheel lacing/hub change on the board the other day I know a read here and, well I might as well typed in "engine", "carb" or, "motor."

Not to say I comment on things as some sort of bookmark, it just so happened I had been reading Duane's page on the difference in the early and later model designs of the headstock preload hardware. I thought his contention was the later model design was superior; that's what got me talking about your post is all. I don't have time to re-read his material at this moment to even know if my understanding there was real or imagined, but I'll re-read everyone's sentiments on the matter when I have time.

Don't worry, the thread was already "shot" and while I don't condone or attempt to derail things, often much is learned of other things when the train becomes derailed as it has. I for one will apologize for contributing in this case. Thanks!

[Airbear]

Gotta love how a thread can drift in this place.
Brunhilde is still a prisoner in the tower. She has suffered all manner of indignities ...



but is coming together now ...



She is alarmingly clean. Test ride in a day or two. Still sorting the wiring. Will do a fuller report on findings when that is the next thing to do ...

[ME 109]

Wow Charlie!

You'll definitely have to cut that fancy doorway now.

Way to go man!

[StephenB]

Charlie, what are those mufflers, they have a wider opening than stock, so it seems. How's the sound?